Mirai tree sale

[Ruddigger]

People have said owning a Mirai tree is akin to owning a Picasso. I think @Colorado hit the nail on the head with the word “provenance.”

True that trees change with time, but to own something with history behind it is intrinsically valuable.

What if we swap out the name Picasso for John Naka? I think a lot of people, Ryan Neil included put a lot of value into owning or working on a Naka tree, there’s a certain cache that goes with it, due to the history and provenance. I think that in time owning a Mirai tree will have a similar value.

 

[Shogun610]

People have said owning a Mirai tree is akin to owning a Picasso. I think @Colorado hit the nail on the head with the word “provenance.”

True that trees change with time, but to own something with history behind it is intrinsically valuable.

What if we swap out the name Picasso for John Naka? I think a lot of people, Ryan Neil included put a lot of value into owning or working on a Naka tree, there’s a certain cache that goes with it, due to the history and provenance. I think that in time owning a Mirai tree will have a similar value.

Idk while I respect Ryan Neil obviously, I think he’s part of an elite class of bonsai professionals in the US, but I don’t think he’s the best or the only best. . Don’t get me wrong I defended the prices on the trees , and Ryan Neil as a master, but I will have to disagree/ you have to chill with the fanboy shit lol.

 

[Ruddigger]

Idk while I respect Ryan Neil obviously, I don’t think he’s the end all be all, he’s just more savvy with social media and awareness. Don’t get me wrong I defended the prices on the trees , and Ryan Neil as a master, but I will have to disagree/ you have to chill with the fanboy shit lol.

Fanboy? I didn’t say I was a fan, I’m making an objective statement.

 

[coh]

Idk while I respect Ryan Neil obviously, I don’t think he’s the end all be all, he’s just more savvy with social media and awareness. Don’t get me wrong I defended the prices on the trees , and Ryan Neil as a master, but I will have to disagree/ you have to chill with the fanboy shit lol.

I think "fanboy shit" is a little extreme. I don't consider myself a "fanboy" of any bonsai artist (but if you want to see some in action, join Mirai and watch the chat box during the live streams) but I'd still like to have a tree that was worked on by Ryan, or Bjorn, or Suthin or several others. I have a few trees that came through Bill V's place, I don't know how much work he may have done on them, maybe none in some cases, but I still like knowing they passed through his hands.

 

[Shogun610]

I think "fanboy shit" is a little extreme. I don't consider myself a "fanboy" of any bonsai artist (but if you want to see some in action, join Mirai and watch the chat box during the live streams) but I'd still like to have a tree that was worked on by Ryan, or Bjorn, or Suthin or several others. I have a few trees that came through Bill V's place, I don't know how much work he may have done on them, maybe none in some cases, but I still like knowing they passed through his hands.

Oh yeah certainly I’d love to get a tree they worked on …any or all you listed if even throw in Hagedorn, or Pall …hell even if they worked on it with me or even critiqued it or praised it.. whatever it would be an honor. I just don’t think Ryan Neil would want to be gawked over and called the Picasso best bonsai artist in the world. He would look at you like “ dude”

 

[Ruddigger]

I just don’t think Ryan Neil would want to be gawked over and called the Picasso best bonsai artist in the world. He would look at you like “ dude”

It’s clear you didn’t understand what I wrote. I said it would be more apt to compare to John Naka than Picasso, because of the provenance. Also, if you think Picasso is the best artist in the world you must not have seen very much art. You’re being hyperbolic.

 

[Hartinez]

Provenance is such an important topic of conversation with these! Especially with as dynamic an art form as bonsai is. Always changing. At some point with trees, unless we keep them looking exactly the same as the original artist intended, i feel it ends up being more about the idea than the object. What happens if a major defining branch dies after the fact? Does the tree lose its provenance because the original design was compromised?

 

[Ruddigger]

Provenance is just an important topic of conversation with these! Especially with as dynamic an art form as bonsai is. Always changing. At some point with trees, unless we keep them looking exactly the same as the original artist intended, it ends up being more about the idea than the object. What happens if a major defining branch dies after the fact? Does the tree lose its provenance because the original design was compromised?

Provenance is the chain of ownership, so technically no, but I get your point.

 

[Hartinez]

Provenance is the chain of ownership, so technically no, but I get your point.

Of course technically, but that is why Bonsai is so dam interesting as an art. You really have to dive deep into the realm of concept, thought and idea. Because over the course of 50 yrs of any trees life. Deciduous most of all, the plants material completely changes over and is basically brand new. A tree is always going to look completely different over time. I know I’m getting a little woo woo, but it’s such an interesting thought to me. I think this is also where photography and documentation become so crucial to the status of quality provenance especially with something that is ever changing.

 

[Hartinez]

Provenance is the chain of ownership, so technically no, but I get your point.

Here’s another hypothetical question. In ten years (or any amount of time) what if one of the owners of these trees decides to sell. Maybe one of the trees that went for 5k plus. What if the owner decided to care for it entirely by him/herself and was just ok at the execution of styling techniques. How readily do you think people would be jumping to buy the tree just because of its provenance from ten years (or any amount of time) earlier? Has the tree maxed out it’s value unless it is continuously cared for by the original artist?

 

[Ruddigger]

Here’s another hypothetical question. In ten years (or any amount of time) what if one of the owners of these trees decides to sell. Maybe one of the trees that went for 5k plus. What if the owner decided to care for it entirely by him/herself and was just ok at the execution of styling techniques. How readily do you think people would be jumping to buy the tree just because of its provenance from ten years (or any amount of time) earlier? Has the tree maxed out it’s value unless it is continuously cared for by the original artist?

I’d say that as has been established in this thread already, value is in the eye of the beholder. But for some, the provenance may trump the current state of the tree in terms of pricing. I’ve seen many out of shape Naka trees that are still highly coveted.

 

[Shogun610]

Here’s another hypothetical question. In ten years (or any amount of time) what if one of the owners of these trees decides to sell. Maybe one of the trees that went for 5k plus. What if the owner decided to care for it entirely by him/herself and was just ok at the execution of styling techniques. How readily do you think people would be jumping to buy the tree just because of its provenance from ten years (or any amount of time) earlier? Has the tree maxed out it’s value unless it is continuously cared for by the original artist?

Very good concept… it’s an art but also a craft IMO.. cause it’s more than just the appearance of the tree and how it makes you feel but that’s another topic of discussion. I’ve often wrestled with that, how well trees hold value. Lmao I heard a story of a person that had spectacular Azalea and Japanese Maples , worth 10,000 per tree ( they were originally imported from Japan years ago) the dude who owns them left for a week to cheat on his wife…. Guess what happened.. weren’t watered and now they’re fire wood. It also has to do wit the care and how skilled the buyer is to take it or continue at the level of tree , money is one thing and wanting to collect. So I’d hope some of the buyers are actually trained well and/ or it pushes them and serves as motivation to improve the craft.

 

[Hartinez]

Very good concept… it’s an art but also a craft IMO.. cause it’s more than just the appearance of the tree and how it makes you feel but that’s another topic of discussion. I’ve often wrestled with that, how well trees hold value. Lmao I heard a story of a person that had spectacular Azalea and Japanese Maples , worth 10,000 per tree ( they were originally imported from Japan years ago) the dude who owns them left for a week to cheat on his wife…. Guess what happened.. weren’t watered and now they’re fire wood. It also has to do wit the care and how skilled the buyer is to take it or continue at the level of tree , money is one thing and wanting to collect. So I’d hope some of the buyers are actually trained well and/ or it pushes them and serves as motivation to improve the craft.

I’d imagine most (I’m guessing) of those that bought also study with Ryan or other notable pros.

 

[Woocash]

I look at Ryan as a full time artist. I also ama full time artist. As my art gets better, my business savvy also needs to improve. Too often do I see artists who take on this victim mentality. The “starving artist” trope. When really, quality branding, a little business savy and some effort can bump you up a notch. Now some artists love the meager lifestyle if it means making enough to pay bills doing what they love. I for the most part fit that category. I do well for myself, but I don’t break the bank with my sales. This however has begun to change over the last year and a half. I’m fetching awfully high prices for my furniture, because my clients have money and want to pay. It’s worth it to them. I’m about to hire a few employees, one of which will continue producing my jewelry for wholesale accounts and online sales. A part of me feels weird doing these things, but a larger part doesn’t. I’ve busted my ass to build my name and reputation in order to support myself and family. I think Ryan has done the same. As Bonsai Nut has said. This sale is great for the hobby, but beyond that, it’s great for the artists who attempt to make a living in that hobby.

More power to you man. I’ve been on your site a few times and I really like your style, but as you’ve been alluding to, it’s a different form of art. Your average artist makes a name with a distinctive style, one that is recognisable of that artist. The issue with bonsai is that unless you know the name involved, one tree is often able to be compared to another and so the natural characteristics, employment of technique and overall look or feel is what would guide value. As you said, what would it mean if someone bought a Mirai tree, hacked it to pieces or did nothing and really let it go? Or any tree for that matter. Would it still be worth the money? It is very hard to imagine it would be.

What about it someone bought a seedling from Mirai and grew it on would it be worth more as a mature tree because of where it lame from? How about a cutting from a kimura masterpiece?

I can see that provenance really counts is if it has a true hallmark of the creator. One that defines the tree. Or that if the tree is a long time celebrated tree. I’m not sure provenance is quite there if it is only a basic first styling or the tree subsequently changes significantly.

 

[Forsoothe!]

Bonsai is a hobby that takes a lot of time to do. There are people who have lots of money because of the time they spend making money, or pursuing professional duties and have little or no time for mere hobbies. Their professional duties are sort-of hobbies in that they are absorbed in them and they take all their time, and can't take time to paint, sculpt, leasuirely fish, you name it, but can afford to take a half day in-between appointments in Miami to fish on a $1,000 charter, or acquire a painting or tree for a large sum of money because they want to possess nice things just like the people that produce nice things. Nothing wrong with that, just another way of fulfilling their own personal desires. Those of us with extensive hobbies that take a lot of time are very lucky.

 

[Woocash]

Everyone has their own taste, and that’s great. It’s one of the things that make a hobby interesting. I love talking with folks about what they like and why, and comparing their taste with mine. Sometimes you get to see things in a different light that makes you appreciate your hobby all the more. There has been a lot of this in this discussion.

Where I think the discussion loses its value is when someone thinks their opinion is beyond reproach, and feels they can disparage anyone who doesn’t agree with them.

I am interested in owning a ‘finished’ tree, whether it’s a Mirai tree or from another artist. However, what holds the greatest appeal for me is owning a tree that I have ‘finished’. A lot of what really appeals to me about bonsai is the journey from raw material to finished tree. But one day I may see a Mirai tree for sale that really grabs me, and if it’s in my price range I will probably buy it. That does not make me a ‘mug or fat cat’.

Interesting. There are several times in this thread that I could have seen people as having an opinion beyond reproach, but that tends to be the reaction of someone that takes offence to an opinion rather than taking it onboard. Not all opinions are going to be easy to stomach and not all are going to be relatable, but that’s what makes the world interesting. If we all thought the same we wouldn’t be human.

By the sounds of things you have not even bought a Mirai tree so try not to be offended by a concept that doesn’t concern you. If/when you do, consider your reasons for buying the tree and if “because it came from Mirai or anywhere else for that matter” is at the top of the list then feel free to be offended. My opinion is not intended to offended, that’s on you, but there’s no need to sugar coat it just in case and nor does it mean I think my opinion is a general fact. It’s a personal truth, sure, but is your opinion not unwavering as well? If it wasn’t you wouldn’t be offended.

Whatever the case, very few if any of these are what you would call “finished”. You‘d clearly have to spend a lot more for a show ready tree.

 

[Forsoothe!]

For people with more money than time, the provenance is most often worth as much or more than the tree or other art. To be able to say, That's a Walter Pall tree is worth the price. That sort of pride of ownership extends down to us lowlife, too. There are club members who have signature styles and we like to tell others, "I did this in a workshop with Jack So-in-so". It has the additional benefit of precluding criticism!

 

[Kadebe]

........ Also, if you think Picasso is the best artist in the world you must not have seen very much art. You’re being hyperbolic.

With art, how can you say someone is "the best"?"The best" is for everyone different. In my mind, it is based on a subjective feeling you have when you view a work of art.

I have also subscribed to mirai live, and have learned a lot from it. Do I consider him "the best" because of that? No... but he is rock solid.
I also like the trees of Walter Pall, Michael Hagedorn, Peter Warren and more…. also from members on this site. But who's "the best”? I don't have an answer for that.

So what makes Ryan different from the others..... he has tapped into a gap in the market.... getting bonsai closer to people so everyone can learn it, and not all, but still passing on many tricks of the craft to a large crowd.

And comparing the prices of his trees to others...I don't bother with that. If you put two paintings next to each other that are sold for the same price, you may well feel that one of them appeals to you and you are willing to pay the price for it. And for the other you wouldn't be willing to give a tenth of the price.

Yes... the name has to do with it too, just like a Toyota costs less than a Mercedes. Its just as reliable, more options for less money... statistically even fewer breakdowns, and yet many want to pay more for that Mercedes…. because they can afford it and make them feel better.

The value of everything is just what you are willing to give for it. So this also applies to Bonsai. That's why I don't really understand the endless discussion here anymore. I think there is also a lot of jealousy. Many also forget that for the majority of us this is a hobby (that has gotten out of hand for some of us). For him it is his livelihood and he also has to support his staff.

In short...
If you don't want to buy one, don't buy one, but also don't whine about the price others are willing to pay for it.
As long as it's not your money they're spending, you really shouldn't worry about it.

 

[Drewski]

Interesting. There are several times in this thread that I could have seen people as having an opinion beyond reproach, but that tends to be the reaction of someone that takes offence to an opinion rather than taking it onboard. Not all opinions are going to be easy to stomach and not all are going to be relatable, but that’s what makes the world interesting. If we all thought the same we wouldn’t be human.

By the sounds of things you have not even bought a Mirai tree so try not to be offended by a concept that doesn’t concern you. If/when you do, consider your reasons for buying the tree and if “because it came from Mirai or anywhere else for that matter” is at the top of the list then feel free to be offended. My opinion is not intended to offended, that’s on you, but there’s no need to sugar coat it just in case and nor does it mean I think my opinion is a general fact. It’s a personal truth, sure, but is your opinion not unwavering as well? If it wasn’t you wouldn’t be offended.

Whatever the case, very few if any of these are what you would call “finished”. You‘d clearly have to spend a lot more for a show ready tree.

You say your opinion isn’t intended to offend, but you resort to name calling. So allow me to take your claim with a generous pinch of salt. There are people here who disagree with you, and have stated it plainly. Yet, I don’t recall them attempting to insult you. You’re the one who’s done that.

You seem to be quite invested in your stance. I have lost interest in finding out why. I look forward to seeing your trees in 8 years.

 

[Woocash]

You say your opinion isn’t intended to offend, but you resort to name calling. So allow me to take your claim with a generous pinch of salt. There are people here who disagree with you, and have stated it plainly. Yet, I don’t recall them attempting to insult you. You’re the one who’s done that.

You seem to be quite invested in your stance. I have lost interest in finding out why. I look forward to seeing your trees in 8 years.

You were never interested in finding out why. You and various others only wanted to tell me I’m wrong.