Mirai tree sale

[meushi]

I’d say that as has been established in this thread already, value is in the eye of the beholder. But for some, the provenance may trump the current state of the tree in terms of pricing. I’ve seen many out of shape Naka trees that are still highly coveted.

One of the many "secondary" goshin forests is still for sale in Germany for €33000, it has been in the care of a professional since 1996. On top of the Naka provenance, the forest won awards in several exhibits across Europe (including Noelanders). The same place also sells a Prunus mume that was in the Kokufu-ten in 2008 for the tidy sum of €19000.

 

[Drewski]

You were never interested in finding out why. You and various others only wanted to tell me I’m wrong.

Wow! In addition to being a self appointed gatekeeper of bonsai pricing, you’re a mind reader. Impressive.

I can’t speak for the others, but you lost me with the name calling. Why don’t we just agree to disagree?

 

[Woocash]

Wow! In addition to being a self appointed gatekeeper of bonsai pricing, you’re a mind reader. Impressive.

I can’t speak for the others, but you lost me with the name calling. Why don’t we just agree to disagree?

Is that not you name calling there? The trouble with all these arguments is once one takes offence the original discussion goes out the window. Like I said, you were never interested in the view point, but just getting offended that someone could have a different viewpoint at all.

It’s easy to think you’re open minded when you blindly go along the with the status quo.

But fine, as is your prerogative, bye.

 

[rockm]

My two cents on the BC and provenance stuff.

The Bald Cypress is the weakest offering in the sale, IMO. Not that it's bad or anything. It's just underdeveloped for the price. It is a spectacular pre-bonsai, though. It is a Bald Cypress, most likely Florida-collected, as BC from there tend to have "pond cypress" type foliage. I've seen it time and again. If a BC bonsai has awl-shaped foliage and not feather-like leaves, it's most likely from Fla., not the upper Gulf Coast, like La. Fla. BC tend to be less winter hardy than La. collected.

Anyway, that stump is minimally developed. Not a bad thing, but for $3,200 there should be more to it. The pot is nice, but too small and delicate for the tree, IMO (but that's opinion)

Ryan, who has specialized in western conifers, doesn't really have the "feel" for BC, IMO. BC, like western conifers, are specific to a region in the U.S. They speak of that place when they're handled by people familiar with them and their environment. If you are not all that familiar with that region and haven't seen the tree in the wild, it can be difficult to translate it into bonsai. I think Ryan is stuck there with BC. The description points to that unfamiliarity, I think. It says the tree has a knee. I can't see one, but maybe my eyesight is not what it used to be...What I see are roots that people unfamiliar with the species always mistake for knees. Anyway, this tree is nice, but I don't think it's $3,200 nice. It definitely has potential, though.

However, that potential leads back to the provenance stuff. This tree has great "bones" to build on. Those bones were initially noticed, set, and nutured by Ryan. Since, in the past, he has sourced BC from Mary Madison (a legend in Southern and Fla. native bonsai), this tree could be from her. Doesn't say it is, but whoever dug it out, saw something. That is what Ryan saw too and has worked to enhance it--flattening out the root mass, bringing some order to the surface roots, etc.

Bonsai provenance isn't all about who owned the tree, like a painting. Each person that owns a tree adds something to it. They have to. Trees grow and have to be maintained. Even at the beginning stages like this. The provenance with this tree is that Ryan has set foundation that has been chosen and worked. That foundation, the nebari and initial trunk, will always be present. They are the most permanent part of a bonsai. They are its signature. As such, this tree will always have that foundation, whoever owns it in the future. Even a drastic redesign won't change that.

 

[eryk2kartman]

I would agree to disagree and all stuff but

If all those trees would be put into random auction without an artists name beside them, they would've never had been sold for that money that 100% true.

Not sure if that was Ryan or someone else said that in his videos - he could sell his worn jeans and people would've bought them cos they have a history and story behind them, people without their own story they like those things.......
Think about that Most highly paid corporate people dont have any own story or life, they have money and corpo life and they like to own stuff....

Its all mind games......and he found his ground which im quite happy with it, i preffer to see poeple buying high price bonsais rather than feeding big corpos....... so im glad he get 130k diverted from greedy hands........

we all need to realize that this is only a hobby and the Artists are only artists, at the end of the day there are more important things to focus....
we should not fight each other just because someone else is thinking different way.....


so yea i agree to disagree.........

 

[Forsoothe!]

I don't think it's right to characterize all successful people as greedy. There are many high achievers that are not greedy just because they earn large amounts of money. Money is how lots of people keep score. In fact, there are lots of greedy poor people. You can go to a yard sale and find greatly over-priced things. Greedy people tend to covet other people's stuff/money. Earning lots of money because one provides services highly valued in itself has no connection to greed, per sè.

 

[rockm]

I would agree to disagree and all stuff but

If all those trees would be put into random auction without an artists name beside them, they would've never had been sold for that money that 100% true.

Not sure if that was Ryan or someone else said that in his videos - he could sell his worn jeans and people would've bought them cos they have a history and story behind them, people without their own story they like those things.......
Think about that Most highly paid corporate people dont have any own story or life, they have money and corpo life and they like to own stuff....

Its all mind games......and he found his ground which im quite happy with it, i preffer to see poeple buying high price bonsais rather than feeding big corpos....... so im glad he get 130k diverted from greedy hands........

we all need to realize that this is only a hobby and the Artists are only artists, at the end of the day there are more important things to focus....
we should not fight each other just because someone else is thinking different way.....


so yea i agree to disagree.........

This is a bunch of stereotypical BS. How do you know WHO bought the trees? You have some kind of agenda against something that you're transferring to something you have no real knowledge of. How do you know that someone like a retiree, hasn't been putting money aside for something like this?

And FWIW, a lot of the discussion about "these trees are just high priced because Ryan touched them--ooooooooo)"is a bit naive...Even if Ryan's name wasn't attached to some of these trees, they would probably command similar pricing, although a few hundred dollar premium is due to Ryan's ownership, as well as some of the documentation that comes with them--videos of your tree being worked on by Ryan DO add value to it, just as original labeling, documented provenance, etc adds to an antique's value do. this has been true for a very long time. Some people can point to pictures of John Naka working on their trees, which pumps up value...

FWIW, the U.S. has has a pretty extensive market for high-end trees that goes largely under the radar. None of it, for the most part, is online. I've seen this personally here in D.C. Used to have a study group led by the current curator of one of the premier bonsai museums in the U.S. a few years back with members from around here. That study group had a few members who had world class trees at their homes. They weren't necessarily "fat cats," but people in the private sector who had some disposable income, just like the majority of recreational boat owners, gun collectors, and 4x4 owners, etc... Some travelled to collect what they have, others bought it from the original collectors of the material (both relatively pricey paths to get material) I've seen other trees in other locations around the region that are over five figures in value. There are dozens of them around. I'd wager the same is true in Cali, the PNW, as well as Texas, La. and other places, only they're not high profile. I have also heard there have been some bonsai pot sales that have topped six figures in recent years...

People recognize good trees and will pay for them regardless of who made them. This sale gets all the attention because it is backed by the guy with the highest profile (by design) who deals with such trees. If you think I'm wrong, get up to the National show in NY this fall. Look at what's being bought and sold (and remember that a lot of those high end sales happen behind the scenes.)

 

[eryk2kartman]

as i said, i agree to disagree

all corpos are greedy! and everything they do is just about the money and only the money

so again i agree to disagree

 

[rockm]

as i said, i agree to disagree

all corpos are greedy! and everything they do is just about the money and only the money

so again i agree to disagree

 

[Maiden69]

I agree with the statement that a tree by Mirai is not the same as a ball signed by Jordan. Only because it will rest in the hands of the new owner to be able to perpetuate the style, or take it to the next level. Case in point, trees by John Naka. I think the benefit that Ryan have is applying an open mind to the training he received at Kimura's. He revisited trees that he styled right after returning to the states and pointed out that there was so many things that he would have done different now. I think that Ryan and Bjorn are a few of the US artists that have a natural ability to do this, especially since both started at a very young age.

As acquired by Ryan


After bending and letting it regain health


After 1st style


Second tree Ryan


The Vision by John Naka


John Naka 1st style


After 1st style upper branch left for health


Naka tree another artist


After styling

 

[rockm]

as i said, i agree to disagree

all corpos are greedy! and everything they do is just about the money and only the money

so again i agree to disagree

Um, which "corpos" are you talking about? Ryan's business hardly qualifies as a "corporation." It's a small business. It has a range of customers, from online participants to in-person students. He's hardly Monsanto.

Or are you talking about the "corpos" people who buy his products? You mean the people who have money and spend it supporting a small business, as well as smaller businesses who Ryan buys from? The people who can afford to spend a bit of cash on a tree that costs ten times less less than a decent bass boat, or a fiftieth less than a new pickup truck?

Either way, you are basically criticizing people you have no knowledge of, who are spending their money with a small business that probably doesn't clear as much as a successful regional restaurant...

So are you just being a cynic with no actual experience with what you're talking about? or can you site any evidence for this being the bunch of money blind capitalists you hate? Anything?...

 

[eryk2kartman]

@rockm - im not refering Ryan as corpo and im glad that he made 130k in 1 day which is super impressive.

and im happy for both buyers and seller

as i said before i agree to disagree and wont be commenting anymore

all is good here

Happy Bonsai!

 

[Maiden69]

and im glad that he made 130k in 1 day which is super impressive.

If you owned a business you will know that be probably didn't net 1/2 of that 130k. I closed my business because of the extreme overhead here in the US, and I know of several friends that have kept their business because they love what they do. A tuner friend of mine grossed around 600k the year before COVID, his net after paying employees, utilities, and expenses was around $65k. He is one of the few that loves what he does.

 

[badatusernames]

Edit: Actually I'm not going to wade into it even to explain what I believe was a misunderstanding, nevermind

 

[coh]

Edit: Actually I'm not going to wade into it even to explain what I believe was a misunderstanding, nevermind

I don't have anything to add to the thread topic right now, but just wanted to say - I really like your username!

 

[badatusernames]

I don't have anything to add to the thread topic right now, but just wanted to say - I really like your username!

haha thanks!

 

[mattspinniken]

This tree sale is an example of bonsai growing in the US. I think it will be good for the small world of bonsai and help push american bonsai. If trees can be marketed at these prices it will push people to collect better, style better, etc. etc.

 

[Cable]

If I ever got good enough that one of my trees sold for $10K I would not complain. lol. Nor would I care if someone thought it was overpriced.

 

[Katie0317]

The auction was interesting to me. Auctions at Christies and Sotheby's, where fine art of all types are sold...Provenance is very important to value. So it is with all art forms. I believe it's true with trees owned by Ryan Neil. It raises the value and the future value in this particular art form.

I found an interview with him in Architectural Digest. It's fascinating that he starting doing bonsai when he was a child. He's an extraordinary person. He admits to signing nondisclosure agreements with his clients because of their status. So the money isn't a factor for a lot of the people buying his trees. Here's the article. It's worth reading!

Meet the Man Who Grows Mini Million-Dollar Trees

Having honed his bonsai skills under a master in Japan, American Ryan Neil has taken his practice Stateside to wild (and lucrative) acclaim

www.architecturaldigest.com

 

[clem]

My two cents on the BC and provenance stuff.

The Bald Cypress is the weakest offering in the sale, IMO. Not that it's bad or anything. It's just underdeveloped for the price.

i'm not a fan of this tree, because also of it's very big size (it looks like 60 inches high)
The tree has been repoted in a small & flat pot this spring : is it good for the tree survival to sell it now ? isn't it better to wait until next year to sell it so that the root system is more developped ? i dunno, i ask the question, because in Europe, Bonsai or yamadori pre Bonsai are sold when the root system is well developped and strong..