Mirai tree sale

[Hartinez]

Sure - they're not worth it to me either. I'd love to have that literati-style limber pine, but I'm not willing to spend $6,000 on it. However, that doesn't mean I don't think it's worth it - I think someone should snap it up at that price and I'll be surprised if it doesn't sell.



I think you're wrong on this but we can agree to disagree. People have said the trees look more like stock in fancy pots, or how easy it would be to take a piece of stock like that bald cypress and turn it into a show tree. Well, then do it. Put Ryan out of business! It's not easy, it takes time, and that's part of the value of these trees.

Fair enough. I can see your point. I also just want to say though. I think there are a number of practitioners on this site, def not saying I’m one, that could take some of that stock, style it in a very well executed manner, in a way that is perceived to be as good a styling as Ryan presented and still not fetch the dollar amount that Ryan does. Ryan’s business goes so much deeper than his styling or presentation. His branding and his ability to sell his product is next level. Wether that is his trees, knowledge, other peoples stuff. Whatever. Some folks will say that that branding is fluff so what’s the big deal? I for one think his whole business model and styling presentation, streams, everything, is masterful and goes way beyond his Bonsai mastery.

 

[coh]

Ryan shows people how to style a tree like the BC on his streams and much higher levels of styling. the BC isnt one of his best in terms of styling and refinement and im a fan of his work.
i would say again, i like that he works with all types of material, and that many of his trees are indeed attainable to many in the hobby and from his streams more people should be taking this ethos and applying it to their own trees. dont be in awe, be inspired.

Agreed. Another thing for people to keep in mind, Ryan had no history/experience working with some of these species - bald cypress and coast redwood come to mind, but I also don't think he worked on all that many deciduous trees in Japan. So there is a learning curve involved. Bald cypress grows fast but that doesn't mean it responds exactly the same way as other trees, so that if you try to develop ramification you might find branches dropping or dying back if you prune at the wrong time. The timing is a big issue with coast redwoods. So that bald cypress that took him 8 years, it might take less time now that he has developed the techniques.

 

[Hartinez]

Ryan shows people how to style a tree like the BC on his streams and much higher levels of styling. the BC isnt one of his best in terms of styling and refinement and im a fan of his work.
i would say again, i like that he works with all types of material, and that many of his trees are indeed attainable to many in the hobby and from his streams he shows people how to work material like this. more people should be taking this ethos and applying it to their own trees. dont be in awe, be inspired.

. I also love that he is not graft obsessed. He utilizes native foliage in so many cases and promotes as such. Especially on our native junipers. They don’t always have the best foliage but he finds a way to make it work. It’s incredibly inspiring.

 

[coh]

Fair enough. I can see your point. I also just want to say though. I think there are a number of practitioners on this site, def not saying I’m one, that could take some of that stock, style it in a very well executed manner, in a way that is perceived to be as good a styling as Ryan presented and still not fetch the dollar amount that Ryan does. Ryan’s business goes so much deeper than his styling or presentation. His branding and his ability to sell his product is next level. Wether that is his trees, knowledge, other peoples stuff. Whatever. Some folks will say that that branding is fluff so what’s the big deal? I for one think his whole business model and styling presentation, streams, everything, is masterful and goes way beyond his Bonsai mastery.

On that we agree 100%. He's done a masterful job and I have no problem with his prices - even if I'm not willing to pay them!

 

[BobbyLane]

Agreed. Another thing for people to keep in mind, Ryan had no history/experience working with some of these species - bald cypress and coast redwood come to mind, but I also don't think he worked on all that many deciduous trees in Japan. So there is a learning curve involved. Bald cypress grows fast but that doesn't mean it responds exactly the same way as other trees, so that if you try to develop ramification you might find branches dropping or dying back if you prune at the wrong time. The timing is a big issue with coast redwoods. So that bald cypress that took him 8 years, it might take less time now that he has developed the techniques.

when i was subscribed i enjoyed immensely his work on deciduous trees, i have learnt a lot even from the few i seen.

 

[Hartinez]

On that we agree 100%. He's done a masterful job and I have no problem with his prices - even if I'm not willing to pay them!

Neither would I! But then again, I’m only 38. I’ve got years to develop my trees. Ask me again when I’m 60 living on my stocks and retirement. My attitude on buying close to finished trees may change.

I do have an understanding though why some people are rubbed the wrong way by the prices. I’m just not one of them.

 

[Hartinez]

I’ve got to say also. This whole thread has stayed so fucking civil considering all the disagreement. It, for the most part, has focused exclusively for 13 pages on Bonsai, with the only deviations being on economics related to pricing. I love these types of threads when they stay on track.

 

[Woocash]

You've said it, I've said it, others have said it.

There's just a lot of jealousy out there. People are jealous of Ryan's success. People are jealous that they can't afford his trees. People think they can easily reproduce what he has created. Well, let's see it. @Woocash , you have a lot to say on the subject. The clock is ticking. Let's see what all your trees look like in 6 or 8 years.

Darn tootin’! If in 6 or 8 years time my trees don’t hold up to scrutiny that’ll be fine, but I won’t be sticking them in overpriced pots, writing a barf inducing sales spiel and charging several thousand for mine.

I find it funny that the first place people go to when their value on money is questioned is jealousy. People just don’t like to be criticised for holding so much weight in money. If the world goes tits up and financial markets come crashing down then my world will be fine. I’ve intentionally built a life where money, or lots of it, is not needed to be sustainable. My ire does not stem from jealousy, more that people think it’s ok to spend enough to feed a small family for a year on what several people i know would call a stick in a pot.

People keep playing the violin for the penniless artist, but how much time has actually been spent on the BC in those 8 years? What is the markup on those pots? There I was criticising Ryan Neil when really I should have been criticising the mugs and fat cats who buy the trees for overpricing the bonsai market. A tree which has had years of meticulous detail spent on it or a truly unique real bonafide yamadori of course will be worth or at least can be justified having the money spent on it. I just think the majority of this sale is simply fanboy splurge material.

 

[Ohmy222]

I think it is a pond cypress myself. Just doesn't look like what I consider a bald cypress.

 

[Maiden69]

you see i was left confused, i kinda thought they were fast growers, but if the mirai one is in training 8 years i thought the branches would be more matured, which left me thinking they must be slow growers, in which case the cheaper one could be real decent in just 5 years. investment wise, its a good project.

Here is my answer to that from the take I got from listening to Ryan talking about substrates.

Ryan planted those trees in 100% akadama, and he emphasizes that akadama should only be used in trees in refinement. His reasoning is because akadama scales down with the root system and it slows down the growth of the tree. I have noticed that on a few ficus cuttings I have here, one was in Bonsai Jack's organic coil mix, the other 2 were in akadama with kyriu, the ones in akadama are not even 1/3 the size of the one In the organic blend. I have 4 BC seedlings that I bought in March. They are all planted in inorganic soil, they do have 1/3" akadama, but that was not enough to keep them growing so I submerged the pots in water. I lost 2 to a hail storm. The other 3 are pictured here in order of time. The last one is a 1 gal tree I bought online in April. You can see it pictured behind the seedlings. The seedlings grew about the size of that 1 gal in 2 months, so I decided to move the 1 gal into a rootpouch and into water. It is finally thickening.


MARCH


JUNE


JULY


TODAY Seedling


TODAY 1 Gal


APR


TODAY Seedlings


Today 1 Gal

 

[Hartinez]

Darn tootin’! If in 6 or 8 years time my trees don’t hold up to scrutiny that’ll be fine, but I won’t be sticking them in overpriced pots, writing a barf inducing sales spiel and charging several thousand for mine.

I find it funny that the first place people go to when their value on money is questioned is jealousy. People just don’t like to be criticised for holding so much weight in money. If the world goes tits up and financial markets come crashing down then my world will be fine. I’ve intentionally built a life where money, or lots of it, is not needed to be sustainable. My ire does not stem from jealousy, more that people think it’s ok to spend enough to feed a small family for a year on what several people i know would call a stick in a pot.

People keep playing the violin for the penniless artist, but how much time has actually been spent on the BC in those 8 years? What is the markup on those pots? There I was criticising Ryan Neil when really I should have been criticising the mugs and fat cats who buy the trees for overpricing the bonsai market. A tree which has had years of meticulous detail spent on it or a truly unique real bonafide yamadori of course will be worth or at least can be justified having the money spent on it. I just think the majority of this sale is simply fanboy splurge material.

I look at Ryan as a full time artist. I also ama full time artist. As my art gets better, my business savvy also needs to improve. Too often do I see artists who take on this victim mentality. The “starving artist” trope. When really, quality branding, a little business savy and some effort can bump you up a notch. Now some artists love the meager lifestyle if it means making enough to pay bills doing what they love. I for the most part fit that category. I do well for myself, but I don’t break the bank with my sales. This however has begun to change over the last year and a half. I’m fetching awfully high prices for my furniture, because my clients have money and want to pay. It’s worth it to them. I’m about to hire a few employees, one of which will continue producing my jewelry for wholesale accounts and online sales. A part of me feels weird doing these things, but a larger part doesn’t. I’ve busted my ass to build my name and reputation in order to support myself and family. I think Ryan has done the same. As Bonsai Nut has said. This sale is great for the hobby, but beyond that, it’s great for the artists who attempt to make a living in that hobby.

 

[casun]

Of course, that leads to the related question "are their container prices too high?"

The answer is yes, and I think they should lower the prices, for me.

 

[Woocash]

My .2


@Woocash is newer to the art, but I assure you he knows well enough about what he’s looking at to give himself an informed position. I’ve been on this site for a minute and seen his prebonsai long enough to know that. But take that as you may.

as someone who sells shit for sometimes really expensive amounts and has also sold basically the same thing for drastically less, arguing over a dollar amount means nothing. Stuff is worth what people will pay for it. Period. I know this has been said. But this sale is as true a point to that as it gets. I personally would not buy any of these at the price listed. But this sale is not for me. And me saying they are not worth it, to me, means nothing, because obviously they are worth it. Or they wouldn’t have sold.

Appreciate the love Danny, I do hope to be able to show some proof in the pudding in a few years, not to prove to anyone that I can live up to Ryan neil’s or anyone else’s ability, but because I have my own ambitions and standards for myself.

I basically agree with what’s been said for the last few posts because rationality has been applied but I still don’t think that saying because they have sold means they are worth it. Anybody with more money than artistic vision or sense can purchase any old tat, but that doesn’t mean it’s worth it. It just means that someone thinks they know what they’re looking at or what the value is in it, regardless of whether there is any or not. As an artist yourself you must have seen lots of that sort of thing over the years.

 

[Hartinez]

Appreciate the love Danny, I do hope to be able to show some proof in the pudding in a few years, not to prove to anyone that I can live up to Ryan neil’s or anyone else’s ability, but because I have my own ambitions and standards for myself.

I basically agree with what’s been said for the last few posts because rationality has been applied but I still don’t think that saying because they have sold means they are worth it. Anybody with more money than artistic vision or sense can purchase any old tat, but that doesn’t mean it’s worth it. It just means that someone thinks they know what they’re looking at or what the value is in it, regardless of whether there is any or not. As an artist yourself you must have seen lots of that sort of thing over the years.

I have. But nothing quite compares to Bonsai. What I find so interesting about this art, is the fact that you can buy a tree that has been collected, cared for, repotted, and styled multiple times to a “finished” state by someone else. Then take said tree after one year in your possession and put it in a show with your name on it. This isn’t necessarily a knock on someone who does this. But tell me another art form that does this? This really is such a unique form of expression in so many ways. I do know and have seen people who take a tree that was one way and completely changed its identity to present in another way.

 

[Maiden69]

I think it is a pond cypress myself. Just doesn't look like what I consider a bald cypress.

That one is a bald cypress. Screenshots from Bald Cypress Spring Pruning

Mirai's bald cypress


Mirai's Pond Cypress

 

[Colorado]

Ryan Neil is arguably the most prolific bonsai artist/professional in the world at the moment.

It should go without saying that a tree from Ryan Neil is going to be more valuable than the exact same tree that someone else styled.

It’s like saying a basketball from Amazon is “the same” as a basketball signed by Michael Jordan.

Personally, I think it would be awesome to have a Mirai tree in my garden someday. Not just because it would be a nice tree, but because it has provenance. Especially the trees that have been featured in the videos. I think there is something interesting about a tree that has been passed from one garden to another, perhaps through multiple generations. Through the ups and downs.

Maybe next tree sale

 

[Hartinez]

Ryan Neil is arguably the most prolific bonsai artist/professional in the world at the moment.

It should go without saying that a tree from Ryan Neil is going to be more valuable than the exact same tree that someone else styled.

It’s like saying a basketball from Amazon is “the same” as a basketball signed by Michael Jordan.

Personally, I think it would be awesome to have a Mirai tree in my garden someday. Not just because it would be a nice tree, but because it has provenance. Especially the trees that have been featured in the videos. I think there is something interesting about a tree that has been passed from one garden to another, perhaps through multiple generations. Through the ups and downs.

Maybe next tree sale

While I agree with you statement on Ryan and his prolific nature currently, the analogy seems off. A basketball signed by Michael Jordan will forever remain a basketball signed by Michael Jordan. It doesn’t slowly fade over time with you the owner needing to replicate In perpetuity the style and form of Michael Jordan’s signature once a year, twice year, whatever, for it to remain a Michael Jordan signature. A tree styled by Ryan Neil, will only be that for so long. Fact of the matter is. Branches die, trees change, styles are updated. This isn’t to take away from Ryan Neil or his excellence. He’s a bad ass. I though feel like I’d be more thrilled with a tree collected by Randy knight than anything else. THAT I would pay for. That is the true provenance IMO

 

[Drewski]

Everyone has their own taste, and that’s great. It’s one of the things that make a hobby interesting. I love talking with folks about what they like and why, and comparing their taste with mine. Sometimes you get to see things in a different light that makes you appreciate your hobby all the more. There has been a lot of this in this discussion.

Where I think the discussion loses its value is when someone thinks their opinion is beyond reproach, and feels they can disparage anyone who doesn’t agree with them.

I am interested in owning a ‘finished’ tree, whether it’s a Mirai tree or from another artist. However, what holds the greatest appeal for me is owning a tree that I have ‘finished’. A lot of what really appeals to me about bonsai is the journey from raw material to finished tree. But one day I may see a Mirai tree for sale that really grabs me, and if it’s in my price range I will probably buy it. That does not make me a ‘mug or fat cat’.

 

[Hartinez]

Everyone has their own taste, and that’s great. It’s one of the things that make a hobby interesting. I love talking with folks about what they like and why, and comparing their taste with mine. Sometimes you get to see things in a different light that makes you appreciate your hobby all the more. There has been a lot of this in this discussion.

Where I think the discussion loses its value is when someone thinks their opinion is beyond reproach, and feels they can disparage anyone who doesn’t agree with them.

I am interested in owning a ‘finished’ tree, whether it’s a Mirai tree or from another artist. However, what holds the greatest appeal for me is owning a tree that I have ‘finished’. A lot of what really appeals to me about bonsai is the journey from raw material to finished tree. But one day I may see a Mirai tree for sale that really grabs me, and if it’s in my price range I will probably buy it. That does not make me a ‘mug or fat cat’.

Yup. I agree with this for sure. It may never be to the level of a Mirai or bjorn tree, but my favorite finished tree will def be my own! I love the process so dam much good and bad. Talk to me though when I’m 60. Maybe I’ll want something a little further along at that point.

 

[Shogun610]

How many RMJs, Ponderosas, coast cypress and Limber Pine bonsai have you actually seen in the U.K.? Do you know what kind of work goes into any of those trees? This one remains unsold at $6,200

Limber Pine No. 3

An icon of Mirai, this literati limber pine defies many bonsai rules, and in that defiance, sits well in the wonderfully formed rinka-shaped yama aki pot from Japan. The context of the combination being a significant part of the tree and containers relationship. This tree has been repotted...

goods.bonsaimirai.com

It is about as high quality as collected trees come. Limber pine is not all that common as bonsai. A specimen with attributes (excellent trunk, deadwood, and elegant apex) like this one has don't come along that often. It's been in training 10 years. Worth every penny of that $6,200.

If you've worked with some of these species, you better understand why some trees are priced the way they are and why people pay for them. You don't see any "show stopper" trees in the thumbnail pics. I see more than a few. Pictures on a screen never do trees justice.

Ryan Neil is arguably the most prolific bonsai artist/professional in the world at the moment.

It should go without saying that a tree from Ryan Neil is going to be more valuable than the exact same tree that someone else styled.

It’s like saying a basketball from Amazon is “the same” as a basketball signed by Michael Jordan.

Personally, I think it would be awesome to have a Mirai tree in my garden someday. Not just because it would be a nice tree, but because it has provenance. Especially the trees that have been featured in the videos. I think there is something interesting about a tree that has been passed from one garden to another, perhaps through multiple generations. Through the ups and downs.

Maybe next tree sale

Ryan Neil is arguably the most prolific bonsai artist/professional in the world at the moment.

It should go without saying that a tree from Ryan Neil is going to be more valuable than the exact same tree that someone else styled.

It’s like saying a basketball from Amazon is “the same” as a basketball signed by Michael Jordan.

Personally, I think it would be awesome to have a Mirai tree in my garden someday. Not just because it would be a nice tree, but because it has provenance. Especially the trees that have been featured in the videos. I think there is something interesting about a tree that has been passed from one garden to another, perhaps through multiple generations. Through the ups and downs.

Maybe next tree sale

He is prolific, and one of the bigger names in Bonsai in USA, but not the most prolific In world.