Mirai tree sale

[rockm]

Was not meant to be in the same league. The point was "I would buy a $200.00 bush before, I paid Mirai money for a 40 year old tree.

If you have the money and desire to buy one of these go for it. I will still value your opinion at a later date. I would even ask how its doing. But the above is my personal opinion. I enjoy looking at trees others make some are inspirational. But I would rather do it myself than spend that kind of $$$$$$

FWIW, I paid $75 for this Kingsville ten years ago. It looked much the same as the small Kingsville in your field photo when I got it. It is about the same size as the examples in your photos. The grower (who is local to the area the originating nursery in Crownsville, Md.) told be the tree was about 40 years old. Note from trunk to branching, this tree is less than 1/10 the size of the one sold by Mirai (if that one is from Shanti Bithi, it's likely 70 plus years old).

 

[rockm]

I didn’t even know about Sharon! But I am also a bit ‘new’ to the bonsai and bonsai pot scene. I will have to look up her work. It makes me happy to see some prominent women in bonsai in the meantime, though they are very few but exceptionally skilled (April Grigsby, Young Choe, Vicki Chamberlain, Sara Rayner just to name a few).

I think this happens to women in Japan too who have prominent bonsai pot maker spouses.. But I’m not going to go into gender equality issues in re: to Japan.

I miss Ron and Sharon in the local bonsai scene. They sold pots every year at the Potomac Bonsai Association show and sale in D.C. She made rougher natural edge pots, as well as more refined looking pots and kusamono pots. She and Ron established their bonsai pot biz up in Pa. and set up their huge wood-fired kiln--the photos below were taken at one of Ron and Sharon's kiln opening parties (which I also miss)

 

[Sansokuu]

Then buy it through Mirai, there are plenty of artist, not only on the bonsai industry that don't like to deal with detail sales. I'm sure if J.Cross wanted to sell his pots by detail he would do so. Right now, there are quite a few big names in the game that if you go to their website there are no new items added for sale. But there is new stuff from them on sale by distributors. There is a big misconception that some people have about price, it is to think that if they buy through the artists the price will be cheaper (fair). And this is not true, a lot of times the price is done in accordance with the artist. The distributor usually gets a discount because they buy in bulk. MRP are usually set, and a lot of times the distributor can not go above or below the accorded MRP. Don't know if this is the case with J.Cross pots, but could be.

Well, our experience with Mirai was such that there wasn’t any discussion about pricing, but we also did not do any exclusive contracts. They decided the markup on their own, and if J. cross is heavily promoted and featured by Mirai he likely did sign something exclusive, at least for the American audience. I know you can still buy direct from some european potters that are exclusive in the U.S. with Mirai, but they still ship to Mirai and you have to pay a Mirai surcharge. It is the same with Austin Heitzman, if you buy anything bonsai from him outside of Mirai there is a Mirai tax. Not sure if any of that has changed as of late. But a muddy answer to your question is yes, it would be cheaper to buy our pots from us (Nao and I) than through Mirai.

 

[Sansokuu]

I miss Ron and Sharon in the local bonsai scene. They sold pots every year at the Potomac Bonsai Association show and sale in D.C. She made rougher natural edge pots, as well as more refined looking pots and kusamono pots. She helped Ron establish their bonsai pot biz up in Pa. and set up their huge wood-fired kiln--the photos below were taken at one of Ron and Sharon's kiln opening parties (which I also miss)

I really admire the old school potters. The last time I saw a kiln like this was a potter in Portland, OR downsizing her studio set up to a simple electric kiln. But her gas kiln was built very similarly with the custom welded steel frame and hand stacked bricks. You can also always repurpose the whole setup, burners too. People buy everything prefab these days for much more cost and a bit less customization. Thanks for sharing these!!

 

[rockm]

I really admire the old school potters. The last time I saw a kiln like this was a potter in Portland, OR downsizing her studio set up to a simple electric kiln. But her gas kiln was built very similarly with the custom welded steel frame and hand stacked bricks. You can also always repurpose the whole setup, burners too. People buy everything prefab these days for much more cost and a bit less customization. Thanks for sharing these!!

FWIW, Sharon and Ron moved to the Carolina coast and set up big gas kilns. They weren't the same as the wood fired stuff--not worse or better, just different. That huge kiln could produce some spectacular glaze effects depending on where the pot was on the shelf and the effectiveness of people staying up all night to throw wood in the firebox..

 

[Wood]

... In addition, there’s been situations where the exclusive distributor risks their own money ahead of getting inventory, in the form of infrastructure/capital costs(like setting up a new kiln) or an advance. As a business/capital guy, I cannot see the “financial only” reason to do it.

Did this actually happen or is just a theoretical situation that could have happened? I certainly could understand those kind of contracts, but it still grinds my gears. I think it's more an emotional reaction that rational. Those artists absolutely deserve to make smart business decisions that enable them to support their families or pursue their art more

My emotional struggle is that Ryan seems to style Mirai Live as a thing for the masses. The message is always "You can have this if you take good care of your trees and make good styling decisions". Bonsai Mirai, on the other hand, is the exact opposite -- garden visits are $100 and the cheapest shohin pots on his site regularly run $500. I'm cherry-picking a little bit here, but This Tom Benda pot in Europe is $750, and this very similar TB pot at Mirai is $1200. Mirai isn't paying $500 per pot in import and warehousing costs

When you pair that with Ryan's habit of locking down US distribution rights of aesthetically unique potters (J Cross, Tom Benda, Horst Heinzelreiter, Me and Raimondi, I swear I'm forgetting some), the Mirai aesthetic is only for the people that can pay an arm and a leg. It's definitely inspired me to start pottery classes so I can (eventually, poorly) emulate these awesome looks by myself

It's funny because I don't feel that annoyed about Mirai's tree prices, only their pots and stands. Maybe it's something about Ryan shouldn't be making such massive profits on other people's work, but it feels okay to price his (or his employees' or students') work expensively?

 

[Maiden69]

Note from trunk to branching, this tree is less than 1/10 the size of the one sold by Mirai (if that one is from Shanti Bithi, it's likely 70 plus years old).

I'm going to listen to it again and will report back, I thought it was 40... but I saw that stream months ago.

I really admire the old school potters. The last time I saw a kiln like this was a potter in Portland, OR downsizing her studio set up to a simple electric kiln. But her gas kiln was built very similarly with the custom welded steel frame and hand stacked bricks. You can also always repurpose the whole setup, burners too. People buy everything prefab these days for much more cost and a bit less customization. Thanks for sharing these!!

You're welcome, it is a very pretty pot! Quail included.

It is the same with Austin Heitzman, if you buy anything bonsai from him outside of Mirai there is a Mirai tax. Not sure if any of that has changed as of late. But a muddy answer to your question is yes, it would be cheaper to buy our pots from us (Nao and I) than through Mirai.

I heard about Austin's bonsai material "added tax", but to me it is ok. I use to do welding jobs on the side, I gave some cards out to customers and friends and if someone was referred to me and brought the card I pass a little something their way. I think Austin is doing the same to Ryan for the bonsai customers brought in because of Mirai stream on him. I did noticed the Nao pots marked up as well... not that there have been any Nao/Sansokuu pots available for a while... since you guys have been busy making pots for the various shows lately. I check the site once in a while to see if there is something new.

 

[rockm]

Did this actually happen or is just a theoretical situation that could have happened? I certainly could understand those kind of contracts, but it still grinds my gears. I think it's more an emotional reaction that rational. Those artists absolutely deserve to make smart business decisions that enable them to support their families or pursue their art more

My emotional struggle is that Ryan seems to style Mirai Live as a thing for the masses. The message is always "You can have this if you take good care of your trees and make good styling decisions". Bonsai Mirai, on the other hand, is the exact opposite -- garden visits are $100 and the cheapest shohin pots on his site regularly run $500. I'm cherry-picking a little bit here, but This Tom Benda pot in Europe is $750, and this very similar TB pot at Mirai is $1200. Mirai isn't paying $500 per pot in import and warehousing costs

When you pair that with Ryan's habit of locking down US distribution rights of aesthetically unique potters (J Cross, Tom Benda, Horst Heinzelreiter, Me and Raimondi, I swear I'm forgetting some), the Mirai aesthetic is only for the people that can pay an arm and a leg. It's definitely inspired me to start pottery classes so I can (eventually, poorly) emulate these awesome looks by myself

It's funny because I don't feel that annoyed about Mirai's tree prices, only their pots and stands. Maybe it's something about Ryan shouldn't be making such massive profits on other people's work, but it feels okay to price his (or his employees' or students') work expensively?

I seem to remember Ryan saying once that he was pricing pots because they deserved to be treated as art. He hinted that potters mostly didn't consider themselves in that light and priced too low. Whether that's true, who knows.

I do know that I bought a ton of pots directly from Ron Lang over the years for less than half what the exact same pot (give or take, since hand-made pots are never exactly the same) cost at Mirai. This one (pre-UPS smash) was just over $800. It's mate of the same size and shape in the same kiln load from Ron was $1,700 or so at Mirai. It sold too, so go figure. Ron sold pots directly to buyers right up until he retired. He also did special orders for Mirai that he didn't make for other customers.

 

[IzzyG]

Did this actually happen or is just a theoretical situation that could have happened? I certainly could understand those kind of contracts, but it still grinds my gears. I think it's more an emotional reaction that rational. Those artists absolutely deserve to make smart business decisions that enable them to support their families or pursue their art more

My emotional struggle is that Ryan seems to style Mirai Live as a thing for the masses. The message is always "You can have this if you take good care of your trees and make good styling decisions". Bonsai Mirai, on the other hand, is the exact opposite -- garden visits are $100 and the cheapest shohin pots on his site regularly run $500. I'm cherry-picking a little bit here, but This Tom Benda pot in Europe is $750, and this very similar TB pot at Mirai is $1200. Mirai isn't paying $500 per pot in import and warehousing costs

When you pair that with Ryan's habit of locking down US distribution rights of aesthetically unique potters (J Cross, Tom Benda, Horst Heinzelreiter, Me and Raimondi, I swear I'm forgetting some), the Mirai aesthetic is only for the people that can pay an arm and a leg. It's definitely inspired me to start pottery classes so I can (eventually, poorly) emulate these awesome looks by myself

It's funny because I don't feel that annoyed about Mirai's tree prices, only their pots and stands. Maybe it's something about Ryan shouldn't be making such massive profits on other people's work, but it feels okay to price his (or his employees' or students') work expensively?

It’s not theoretical. I’m privy to 3 such incidences.

As someone who is also privy to other details, he’s not making such margins on ceramics. Don’t get me wrong, I’m sure like any good business owner, there’s obviously a profit but the idea that “he’s constantly making a lot off the backs off ceramicists and limiting the artist’s ability to sell their art elsewhere” is rather inaccurate and frankly unfair.

I remember being in the presence of a situation like I mentioned above unfold in real time and mouthing “WTF” out loud lol. Time and time again, it blows my mind how little these Bonsai artists(including ceramicists) actually make given the investment/risks they take.

 

[Wood]

Well, our experience with Mirai was such that there wasn’t any discussion about pricing, but we also did not do any exclusive contracts. They decided the markup on their own, and if J. cross is heavily promoted and featured by Mirai he likely did sign something exclusive, at least for the American audience. I know you can still buy direct from some european potters that are exclusive in the U.S. with Mirai, but they still ship to Mirai and you have to pay a Mirai surcharge. It is the same with Austin Heitzman, if you buy anything bonsai from him outside of Mirai there is a Mirai tax. Not sure if any of that has changed as of late. But a muddy answer to your question is yes, it would be cheaper to buy our pots from us (Nao and I) than through Mirai.

I do know that I bought a ton of pots directly from Ron Lang over the years for less than half what the exact same pot (give or take, since hand-made pots are never exactly the same) cost at Mirai. This one (pre-UPS smash) was just over $800. It's mate of the same size and shape in the same kiln load from Ron was $1,700 or so at Mirai. It sold too, so go figure. Ron sold pots directly to buyers right up until he retired. He also did special orders for Mirai that he didn't make for other customers.

This shit right here. When there's been rumors about Ron Lang's very last kiln load, and Ryan Neil buys the entire thing before anyone else even knows about it, it doesn't feel very fair

 

[rockm]

View attachment 505003

This shit right here. When there's been rumors about Ron Lang's very last kiln load, and Ryan Neil buys the entire thing before anyone else even knows about it, it doesn't feel very fair

Um, anyone on Facebook who was following Ron knew about his upcoming last two kiln loads. He sent out regular notices for weeks ahead of the opening. Mirai didn't buy "the entire thing." I managed to get three pots from the last two kiln loads. Had to be VERY VERY quick online as there were a hundred others trying to get them as well. Ron set aside pots for Mirai and sold others to the public. Nothing really to be upset about

 

[Wood]

Um, anyone on Facebook who was following Ron knew about his upcoming last two kiln loads. He sent out regular notices for weeks ahead of the opening. Mirai didn't buy "the entire thing." I managed to get three pots from the last two kiln loads. Had to be VERY VERY quick online as there were a hundred others trying to get them as well. Ron set aside pots for Mirai and sold others to the public. Nothing really to be upset about

The way that Ryan and Ron were talking about it on his podcast made it seem like Ryan bought the entire thing at 3am

 

[rockm]

The way that Ryan and Ron were talking about it on his podcast made it seem like Ryan bought the entire thing at 3am

Nope. Not my experience. I got three large pots, but had to be there when the sale began. If I remember right it was afternoon or early evening when the sales (there were two last loads) began.. Ron took emails as markers for who got what. First offer across the server got the pot--IF payment went through. All were snapped up within an hour--which was about 100 plus pots. Below are the other two I got besides the one UPS destroyed.

 

[coh]

As it should be. If Ryan can't command a premium compared to some rando on Facebook, then all of his training, and efforts have been wasted. Bonsai is art. The care and skill provided by a known quantity imparts value on its own.

Hey, more power to him. He has created a brand and people are willing to pay up for almost anything that comes from Mirai. Good for him!

I think someone else posted a comment along the lines of "if one of us posted that tree here on bnut as one of our own creations, we'd catch hell for it."

I used to be a Mirai subscriber and while I love some of his work (well, a lot of it), some stuff just leaves me scratching my head. But he can get away with it, people fawn over almost anything he does. So as I said - good for him.

BTW, that boxwood is an amazing tree. A few more years (well, maybe quite a few since it's a boxwood) in the right hands and it will be spectacular.

 

[mwkohler]

Hey, more power to him. He has created a brand and people are willing to pay up for almost anything that comes from Mirai. Good for him!

I think someone else posted a comment along the lines of "if one of us posted that tree here on bnut as one of our own creations, we'd catch hell for it."

I used to be a Mirai subscriber and while I love some of his work (well, a lot of it), some stuff just leaves me scratching my head. But he can get away with it, people fawn over almost anything he does. So as I said - good for him.

BTW, that boxwood is an amazing tree. A few more years (well, maybe quite a few since it's a boxwood) in the right hands and it will be spectacular.

Yep, that's art unfortunately. Sums up about 50% of the art I see in a museum some times

 

[leatherback]

Nope, Can't help myself from calling BS..

You must be very busy with yourself then.

 

[leatherback]

You effectively held up a book and showed us only the back cover and asked if we had read it. Someone pointed out that you weren't showing us the front where the title is printed. Now you're being a jerk about how much the book should cost because the back cover isn't very pretty.

More like, yeah, you see the cover, but when you open up the book, there are lots of torn pages.
But hey, each to their own.

I do not grow 2D trees, I look at my trees from all sides.

 

[jal777]

Yes it is, I saw it Tuesday on the stream and thought the



Ryan did miss the point by not mentioning your name on the listing, or on the video but he went to say that you are



A few people in the chat did brought up your name and the name of your business.

A few screenshots of the pot as Ryan was talking about it.

View attachment 504933


View attachment 504936


View attachment 504937

That pot is gorgeous. Might've bought the tree just for the pot, tbh.

 

[Gran_Puma]

The price is definitely high, probably at the upper end of reasonable. It is, however, a rare species in mame size in a container. How many mame sized sage bonsai have you seen? This is the only one I've seen. Unstyled or styled. Most others are over 12" or even twice that with considerable root mass and pot. Mame are much harder to keep than larger bonsai in general--a lot less room for error--few branches, smaller soil volume, less foliage and branching to work with, etc.

Good mame bonsai are expensive. Ever price a shimpaku mame from Suthin?

Oh no, I didn't know Suthin did mame (also does he do online sales anymore?). I have seen his shohin and have thought about getting one in the future, I did get into mame this summer and enjoy the small size.

Well, our experience with Mirai was such that there wasn’t any discussion about pricing, but we also did not do any exclusive contracts. They decided the markup on their own, and if J. cross is heavily promoted and featured by Mirai he likely did sign something exclusive, at least for the American audience. I know you can still buy direct from some european potters that are exclusive in the U.S. with Mirai, but they still ship to Mirai and you have to pay a Mirai surcharge. It is the same with Austin Heitzman, if you buy anything bonsai from him outside of Mirai there is a Mirai tax. Not sure if any of that has changed as of late. But a muddy answer to your question is yes, it would be cheaper to buy our pots from us (Nao and I) than through Mirai.

I'll just add my experience talking with one of the Mirai potters at the local bonsai show. He has an exclusivity agreement with Ryan, and Ryan sets the prices on his pots. The local show is the only other place he sells bonsai pots, much to the chagrin of Ryan. Let's just say that buying direct is much cheaper than Mirai, plus I got an invitation to visit the studio in the future!

 

[SouthernMaple]

View attachment 505003

This shit right here. When there's been rumors about Ron Lang's very last kiln load, and Ryan Neil buys the entire thing before anyone else even knows about it, it doesn't feel very fair

he didn't get every pot, I know of at least two people that got pots from that kiln load