Soil Wars-Turface

[chansen]

Chris, lava's not bad. But it too holds too much moisture per Michael and Randy.

Just a quick note on this for those that may be reading the thread and still figuring their soil mix out. Lava does hold more water and that is why I use it. I live in a low humidity, low precipitation, hot, high altitude climate. All of those things together mean lots of evaporation. I need the extra water retention and lava gives me a neutral, inorganic substrate that can still hold water. It works wonders for me along with pumice and akadama (when I can get it). If you live in a climate with low evaporation rates, lava may not be the substrate for you (or at least use less lava than pumice).

 

[JudyB]

Just a quick note on this for those that may be reading the thread and still figuring their soil mix out. Lava does hold more water and that is why I use it. I live in a low humidity, low precipitation, hot, high altitude climate. All of those things together mean lots of evaporation. I need the extra water retention and lava gives me a neutral, inorganic substrate that can still hold water. It works wonders for me along with pumice and akadama (when I can get it). If you live in a climate with low evaporation rates, lava may not be the substrate for you (or at least use less lava than pumice).

Does lava hold more water than akadama? I always thought that akadama was the best water retention substrate. I would like to know what that lineup would be, from most water retentive to least between lava, pumice and akadama.

 

[ABCarve]

Dave,

looks like this -

http://www.leca.ae/?q=Agriculture

See catalogue for more information - Hyalite -1917 - Kansas City.

if you can get the 4 to 5 mm grade, it can work.
Good Day
Anthony

Thanks Anthony......happy Thanksgiving!! Do you do that down where you are?

 

[chansen]

Does lava hold more water than akadama? I always thought that akadama was the best water retention substrate. I would like to know what that lineup would be, from most water retentive to least between lava, pumice and akadama.

Judy -

I believe akadama does hold more water than lava. I believe most to least water retentive would be akadama, lava, pumice. Unfortunately I don't always have easy access to akadama, so I have to add additional lava to make up for it.

 

[coh]

Does lava hold more water than akadama? I always thought that akadama was the best water retention substrate. I would like to know what that lineup would be, from most water retentive to least between lava, pumice and akadama.

Judy, I think there are several complications involved in answering this question. For instance, there are different sources for lava and pumice and I don't know if they all behave the same (or similarly). Same with the various grades of akadama. Probably you'd have to test whatever is available to you and come to your own conclusions.

I did a very basic test last year. I took the various individual components (turface, akadama, etc), dried each completely, then filled a cup so each was the same volume. I measured the dry weights, then saturated each with water and allowed the excess to drain. Turface retained the most water (42 g) followed by akadama (32 g), kanuma (30 g), pumice (28 g), lava (22 g) and haydite was last at 16 g. However, not all the particle sizes were equal, and the lava was the largest (and turface and haydite the finest)...plus I only did one sample of each, so my results are not statistically significant. This is the kind of test that others could easily reproduce (hint hint) and that would help us evaluate the various substrates.

Note above that the dry weight of the turface and lava was 73 g, akadama and pumice were 65 g, kanuma was 42 g and haydite was 90 g.

The other thing not measured is how well/long each component holds water, how much would be available to the plant, how much water is retained inside the particles vs on the surface, etc.

Chris

 

[JudyB]

That's what I would expect between the 3, that akadama would be first, and lava last. From what I've read anyway. I will be starting to use these components next year, so I'll have my own experiences with it in my climate soon. I am convinced that climate has much to do with viability of soils, you really have to figure out what works.

 

[63pmp]

A potting mix has to do four main things; be weighty enough to hold a plant upright; have sufficient oxygen (air filled porosity) to maintain root metabolism straight after watering; it must be chemically inert, and it must not decompose within three to four years (freeze damage). That's all it has to do. Of these factors, air filled porosity is the most important.

Air filled porosity is the thing that is most important for a good potting mix, water holding ability comes afterwards. The reason is that you can always add more water, but it's very difficult to remove it once it's in the pot.

Porous media like perlite, pumice and expanded fired clays are good components as they have micro-porosity which will take up and hold water, and because the pores are large enough for roots to enter, make that water available. (Also they keep available water at the top of the pot, which non porous materials, like crushed rock, or grit, are not good at). That is, they increase the available water of the potting mix without reducing air filled porosity. However, it is the particle size which determines the air filled porosity. Pumice, perlite, lava, or anything else for that matter, with small particle size will have a low air filled porosity and cause poor plant growth.

Air filled porosity, which is dependent on particle size and pot depth, really is the most important aspect of mix design.

This following article gives a good explanation and method for testing your mixes at home.

http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&r...uDdgLxFJI9mkeL_0N-7h37g&bvm=bv.57155469,d.dGI

Sorry for the rant, but this is really getting up my nose. Some potting mix components are better than others, sure, but in the end it's the AFP that is most important.

Paul

 

[Smoke]

A potting mix has to do four main things; be weighty enough to hold a plant upright; have sufficient oxygen (air filled porosity) to maintain root metabolism straight after watering; it must be chemically inert, and it must not decompose within three to four years (freeze damage). That's all it has to do. Of these factors, air filled porosity is the most important.

Air filled porosity is the thing that is most important for a good potting mix, water holding ability comes afterwards. The reason is that you can always add more water, but it's very difficult to remove it once it's in the pot.

Porous media like perlite, pumice and expanded fired clays are good components as they have micro-porosity which will take up and hold water, and because the pores are large enough for roots to enter, make that water available. (Also they keep available water at the top of the pot, which non porous materials, like crushed rock, or grit, are not good at). That is, they increase the available water of the potting mix without reducing air filled porosity. However, it is the particle size which determines the air filled porosity. Pumice, perlite, lava, or anything else for that matter, with small particle size will have a low air filled porosity and cause poor plant growth.

Air filled porosity, which is dependent on particle size and pot depth, really is the most important aspect of mix design.

This following article gives a good explanation and method for testing your mixes at home.

http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&r...uDdgLxFJI9mkeL_0N-7h37g&bvm=bv.57155469,d.dGI

Sorry for the rant, but this is really getting up my nose. Some potting mix components are better than others, sure, but in the end it's the AFP that is most important.

Paul

Interesting. I said this on post 26 and no one seems to care. There are just too many people out there that don't understand how a tree works in a pot nor do they wish to learn about it. Some think that more testing within the community is the answer rather than just listen to experience and try that for a change.

This could apply to religion, love and war. The outcome is always the same.

 

[63pmp]

I did notice your post Smoke,

But you got left on the cutting room floor during editing.

I don't want to cause inter forum friction, but Arihato has more eloquent take on it on a similar thread at IBC.

Blending of components is an important step so that one gets the right combination of air filled porosity and water holding capacity. I'm not sure that any one component is perfect, but it only takes two, or three at most, to make a good mix.

Paul

 

[wireme]

I am getting a feeling that a few people will be shifting to a more pumice based soil soon. Having recently changed from a granite/ lava based mix to primarily large particle pumice I can share a small lesson I learned after the change. Water seems to evaporate very quickly from the top layer when using pumice. Not a big deal with larger pots and collection boxes but trees in actual bonsai pots with fine surface roots will either need a moisture retentive top layer or more frequent misting of the surface than you may be used to in a previous soil mix.

 

[JudyB]

Maybe a regular mix with a bit more pumice than the norm, but with a top dressing of finer sifted akadama would be the way to go for potted well developed trees?

 

[MrFancyPlants]

I still use turface in my mix, although the postal box full of pumice sure is nice. The pumice was't broken up foot stones that I was expecting. We used to have a big chunk of foot stone style pumice that used to float around in our pool.
Turface might not be the best but it is miles ahead of many other substrates and does fine by me mixed with lava, pumice and a dash of spaghnum.
Judy's idea sounds nice. I've been thinking of trying to emulate the properties of soft akadama with a local clay body.

 

[coh]

A potting mix has to do four main things; be weighty enough to hold a plant upright; have sufficient oxygen (air filled porosity) to maintain root metabolism straight after watering; it must be chemically inert, and it must not decompose within three to four years (freeze damage). That's all it has to do. Of these factors, air filled porosity is the most important.

Air filled porosity is the thing that is most important for a good potting mix, water holding ability comes afterwards. The reason is that you can always add more water, but it's very difficult to remove it once it's in the pot.

Porous media like perlite, pumice and expanded fired clays are good components as they have micro-porosity which will take up and hold water, and because the pores are large enough for roots to enter, make that water available. (Also they keep available water at the top of the pot, which non porous materials, like crushed rock, or grit, are not good at). That is, they increase the available water of the potting mix without reducing air filled porosity. However, it is the particle size which determines the air filled porosity. Pumice, perlite, lava, or anything else for that matter, with small particle size will have a low air filled porosity and cause poor plant growth.

Air filled porosity, which is dependent on particle size and pot depth, really is the most important aspect of mix design.

This following article gives a good explanation and method for testing your mixes at home.

http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&r...uDdgLxFJI9mkeL_0N-7h37g&bvm=bv.57155469,d.dGI

Sorry for the rant, but this is really getting up my nose. Some potting mix components are better than others, sure, but in the end it's the AFP that is most important.

Paul

Nice summary.

And it points out, I think, one of the big problems with turface. The particles are small. I can order akadama in different sizes, I can get a bag of pumice and sift out a range of sizes (or probably just order different sizes), but I can't do that with turface...at least not the turface I can get, the particles are all too small. So I can mix turface with similar sized granite or pumice or whatever and modify the water holding slightly, but I can't increase the particle size, which obviously means I'm limited in how much AFP I can get in the pot.

Yet many use turface successfully. Could they be more successful, have "better" trees, if they all switched to Boon mix with turface-sized particles? Or would the supposed benefits only come to fruition if the particle size was increased, thus increasing AFP?

 

[Anthony]

Paul,

if you are still reading.

I don't think there is a soil mix problem, I think there is -

[1] Standard beginner watering problem.

[2] Standard, removal of too much root, collected or nursery plant problem. Add on not enough time for plant recovery and the frustration that follows.

[3] Little or no Biology.

[4] Convenience of growing/watering Bonsai which ties back into [1].

As I understand it, you are very experienced in soil matters, possibly have a degree as well, and yet the exploration of materials continues by the participants on this topic.
The magical clay/pumice mix known as Akadama, the turface MVP, and whatever.
Some time back there was a photographic entry by Robert Stevens showing how easily they grow stuff with volcanic sand.[ what about red lava - I have from Amazon ]

No one is paying attention ------------ because this is what beginners do ---------- it is a necessary part of the Horticultural aspect of Bonsai.

So perhaps we -idiots - should stay out of this topic - let them fight it out.

It is what is done down here.
Good Day
Anthony

*Still using the same ingredients since the early 1980's
It helps to have grown pigeon peas, corn and pumpkin when growing up as a boy in Trinidad.

 

[JudyB]

Paul,

if you are still reading.

I don't think there is a soil mix problem, I think there is -

[1] Standard beginner watering problem.

[2] Standard, removal of too much root, collected or nursery plant problem. Add on not enough time for plant recovery and the frustration that follows.

[3] Little or no Biology.

[4] Convenience of growing/watering Bonsai which ties back into [1].

As I understand it, you are very experienced in soil matters, possibly have a degree as well, and yet the exploration of materials continues by the participants on this topic.
The magical clay/pumice mix known as Akadama, the turface MVP, and whatever.
Some time back there was a photographic entry by Robert Stevens showing how easily they grow stuff with volcanic sand.[ what about red lava - I have from Amazon ]

No one is paying attention ------------ because this is what beginners do ---------- it is a necessary part of the Horticultural aspect of Bonsai.

So perhaps we -idiots - should stay out of this topic - let them fight it out.

It is what is done down here.
Good Day
Anthony

*Still using the same ingredients since the early 1980's
It helps to have grown pigeon peas, corn and pumpkin when growing up as a boy in Trinidad.

So, because we wish to discuss ways to make our trees better be it with substrate or whatever, we are all stupid beginners who can't water?
I'm sorry but it seems to be what you are saying here. I have lots of horticultural experience, have grown market gardens, and planted hundreds of trees, although I have no degree, and little scientific knowledge. But I participate in these conversations so I may better understand the things that may make my trees better.
And to say that no one is paying attention is just kind of insulting.

 

[cascade]

soil war - soil peace

Soil is always a compromise. There is no perfect soil as there are no perfect conditions.

I use either pure red lava rock or lava rock with pumice. Equal granular size. I water my trees a lot and fertilize my trees a lot, as they need it. I stick with what works in my backyard.

This Bougainvillea I grew in pure lava rock. I water it at least once a day. Regular fertilizer, no bougain or else. Bayer for pest control. All clip and grow. The pic is a week old. By now all flower buds have fully opened up.



Best,
Dorothy

 

[coh]

So, because we wish to discuss ways to make our trees better be it with substrate or whatever, we are all stupid beginners who can't water?
I'm sorry but it seems to be what you are saying here. I have lots of horticultural experience, have grown market gardens, and planted hundreds of trees, although I have no degree, and little scientific knowledge. But I participate in these conversations so I may better understand the things that may make my trees better.
And to say that no one is paying attention is just kind of insulting.

Although poorly expressed, I think there is some truth to what he wrote.

I've also been growing plants in the ground and containers for many years (decades). I grew many different orchid species for several years. Once I started doing bonsai, I figured it wouldn't be any more difficult horticulturally than other things I've grown. But I've had a surprisingly hard time keeping some of my trees healthy and thriving in containers. Why is that...

I think part of the problem is that there are so many conflicting opinions on the basics. We are all warned about the dangers of over-watering and over-fertilizing and I think because of that, many of us initially underwater and underfertilize. Then you read that expert A grows his trees in pure turface while expert B says turface is evil and you should never use it. Fine, you say, just use whatever people in your area use. Well, they don't all use the same substrate, and you quickly find that they are often modifying their mixes as new information becomes available.

So I do think there is a learning curve for those of us who've recently started doing bonsai. I'm a scientist and have a pretty good understanding of biology and plant growth and I still have trouble. So it's not that we're all ignorant as implied in the post. Should we have it all figured out within 3 years? Four years? Too many variables to make a claim like that.

Ultimately, it is each person's responsibility to understand the materials as best they can, so they can make educated decisions in the face of so much conflicting advice. Discussions like this on internet forums are an excellent way to accomplish this. Bottom line is if you don't like the soil discussions and have nothing new to contribute, you can always stay out of them...Anthony (and anyone else who feels that way). Otherwise, be careful...you might learn something new.

Chris

 

[Smoke]

I agree Chris...except....

When those that have had sucess with bonsai and have something to contribute, it is ignored or argued because of personality, ignorence or the steadfast belief that without spending great gobs of money on better components, turface must fill the bill.

Like everything in life, there will always be haves and have nots. The havenots in flyover states that do bonsai as more than a hobby are spending what it takes to have better trees. Those that do not will make do.

There are many variables in the soil equation that the bonsaist has control over. Things like repotting and watering and fertilizing can all be adjusted to fit the needs of the plants health. The one thing that the average person does not have control over is particle size. This is the one major factor in all the soil equation that people overlook for whatever reason.

Last Feb. I brought up growstones. I had 900 views on my blog that day about that stuff. The most views I have ever had in a single day. From all around the world. It was shortlived.

Why?

Because the paople that did seek it out looked at it and were instantly turned off at its size. This stuff in the aerator size averages around 5/16 to 3/8 in size. Wow! this is too big for me. Why? because people have been using rice size soil particles in their mix as long as they been suffering in bonsai. I don't know of anyone who experimented growing a plant in growstone to see if there was a benefit?

So....if air seems to be the one component we need to stimulate in our mix to improve our bonsai, how might we achieve that? By using a larger soil particle. When using a larger soil particle, the water flushes thru the soil much faster. It goes thru with a swoosh and with it pulls loads of air into the root mass. It will only do this if the air can get thru the soil as fast as the water does. What does a more open soil look like?

A glass full of growstones and a glass full of turface MVP. Which sample is going to allow the much needed air to be pulled into the soil?

 

[Smoke]

This is a sample box of all the soil components I use to make soil. I don't use them all, this is just a box I take to demos and use to show the size of particles used in making soil. There is no turface in this box.

The bottom left shows two sizes of akadama I use. Small and medium. The top center is calidama mixed with lava. The top left is agricultural pumice used alot around here by farmers.

When I can get it I prefer huyga since it is a little more yellow and not so stark white.

The bottom right is a product called mocha lava. It is a mix used for Green roofs. I get it for 5.00 a bucket. It is the base of my soil mix. About 5/16 (6/7 mm) in size, which I feel is a perfect size for soil components.

Middle right is growstones. As you can see it is not out the correct size for soil particle size. when I brought this stuff up last year I called it the Holy Grail since it should be pretty readily available due to the large growth of the pot growing trade around the US. Even small towns that have no nurseries will have a hydroponic store. In fact the small towns are the ones that have them most.....you know, not many people around.

You people out there growing in straight turface and not trying straight growstones are doing yourselves a disservice by at least not trying it. You will see a difference.

 

[Smoke]

I will warn you, if you mix turface and growstones together, you will defeat the whole purpose of the larger particle size. All particles must be the same size for maximum air exchange.

Those of you using lava and pumice with turface are also defeating your purpose and wasting money on amendment that are not providing you what you need. those using that method would be better served going the straight lava, or straight pumice route that Dorothy mentioned.

A mixture of turface and growstones mixed 50/50. The heavier turface has filtered to the bottom leaving the growstones sitting on top. The turface below has completely clogged the air exchange in this simulated cascade pot.

Al out.