Soil Wars-Turface

As most mentioned. I too would love to use more pumice if it is locally available. They are fairly cheap but after factoring shipping, it gets expensive.

I use mostly Turface in my mix and only had problems when I used 90%+ of it. I even posted a thread about it being waterproof 9 months ago. When it is 50% or less, my plants seem to be thriving and have no problems.

My mix is changing and I will be adding pumice regularly now (bought several boxes already but not used yet) BUT my mix will remain mostly Turface until I find a better material I can source locally.

For me it boils down to the mix, I really believe Turface will work great with proper amendment. I just hope to find the right combination for my weather and style sooner than later. :D
 
What is the compliment?

...or advantage?

It takes up space and adds weight. Isn't that a good enough reason for you? I lost like 3 trees that just floated away because pumice is too light ;)
 
In all seriousness it's the same as using sand but a larger particle size. Holds very little water and could be a good compliment to something like turface that is alleged to hold a lot of water. Just my non scientific opinion. Interested in hearing whether it makes any sense to you Al or am I thinking of it arse backwards?
 
I use turface in my soil, probably 20 to 30%, and did not have any issues with it. Ill know more about how the roots look when I repot this next spring. With that said I never had issues with vigor in my trees or too much water. I also used pumice in my mix too, and I love it. Problem is the cost to get it to Colorado.
 
I got 50 lb bag of Turface in the shed....Haven't used it yet but I plan to. I'm in the southeast and work a full time job that keeps me away from home 12+ a day....So I think I need a mix that holds more water...I have mostly collected larger material. I haven't found any pumice besides stuff about the size of golf-balls. I plan on using 1/3 turface -- 1/3 pine bark soil conditioner -- 1/3 small granite.

For the bald cypress I hope to collect come early spring I plan to use 2/3 pine bark soil conditioner and 1/3 turface.

Please advise if I'm headed in the wrong direction.

Brian
 
In all seriousness it's the same as using sand but a larger particle size. Holds very little water and could be a good compliment to something like turface that is alleged to hold a lot of water. Just my non scientific opinion. Interested in hearing whether it makes any sense to you Al or am I thinking of it arse backwards?

I am just trying to get a handle on people that wish to add rock to their soil mix. A plants roots need two things to grow and THRIVE. They are water and AIR.

Those two words are capitalized for a reason. Since the particle size is small on turface and can can lead to parched water tables, it seems that its moisture retentive properties are what people are looking for. Moisture retentive as far as a clay particle not because its undersized for a bonsai particle.

So in theory to get away from the parched water table due to it being so small, it makes sense in some eyes to add a larger more readily available larger particle like granite grit that can be had at feed stores and pet stores.

Could we also assume that granite grit might be a catch all term for any larger particle that could fill the bill by breaking up the small particles with larger ones mixed in? It would seem so. Even something as mundane as pea gravel? I see absolutley no difference in granite grit over pea gravel. In fact pea gravel would be better due to it being round which is better for less compaction and more gas exchange.

Pea gravel, who would be caught dead adding pea gravel to a bonsai mix? Is it more fashionable to use granite grit because it has been used in years past by big name bonsai people?

I might go out on a limb here and suggest lava to fill the void for the granite grit. That would be a natural correct? OK, so it seems that pumice and lava seem to be a product that is not readily available coast to coast at a reasonable price. The shipping is overwhelming. Why lava?
Lava is porous and also holds water like the turface. It holds it as vapor, which is what the roots need for exchange. So it seems to me that we need a product that is larger, holds some water for gas exchange and could be a hellava lot lighter and more advantages.

What about a mixture of Turface and No. 2 orchid bark. Not composted bark soil conditioner or things like that. Just bark nuggets and turface. No. 2 bark is about 1/4 inch, used for rooting orchids, and would be perfect for soil substrate. Orchid bark does not break down will not rob nitrogen since it is not decaying. It is just used for one thing, offering an oxygenated environment for orchid roots which need massive amounts of air and moisture as vapor.

Since turface seems to be readily available and orchid bark is available at all the big box stores as well as most local city nurseries, it seems that lots of experimenting could be going on. Wood as a soil option does not have to mean "OMG" organic not for me. Ones pot could be at lest 30 percent lighter without the granite. Save that for the driveway!

Now, my big problem with this scenario. Using a larger particle with a smaller particle defeats the purpose of the larger particle in the first place. The smaller particles just get trapped between the nuggets and all the gas exchange is lost. I like soil that is screened for all the particles being the same size, that way no particle can get inbetween any other particle and the air exchange should continue all the way to the bottom of the pot.

So, those of you with no access to good soil components means you will have to work extra hard to get plants thriving. Thats all you can hope for. If you have never seen the effects of good soil before, this is all moot and means nothing to you. That is why Michael wrote the article. He comes at it from a point of view that he can get what he needs and therefore can rant to all of you that can't get it. Sorry......
 
That is why Michael wrote the article. He comes at it from a point of view that he can get what he needs and therefore can rant to all of you that can't get it. Sorry......

Hahaha, dang west coasters always rubbing the limited availability of pumice on the east coast in our faces!!!!
 
turface, etc

Hahaha, dang west coasters always rubbing the limited availability of pumice on the east coast in our faces!!!!
As I said on Michaels blog, there's a hydroponic substrate called grostone which is manufactured pumice (glass) available nationwide in 3 sizes and not expensive, evn here in Hilo;-)
a. Small particle size for propagation mixes – average particle size of 2 mm.

b. Medium particle size for soil enhancement – between 1/16″- 7/16” (5 to 12 mm).

c. Large particle size for most hydroponic systems – between 1/2″- 1″ (12 to 25 mm).

As for dg...it's a heat and cold sink. A problem either way.
grostone.com
 
I think the particle size is a little too small and contributes to its tendency to hold too much water.

You've probably mentioned this on the forum before, but do you use turface alone, or mixed with other ingredients? I know Julian adds a small amount of granite grit and an even smaller amount of peat.

Chris

I use it both ways...but primarily mix it. Lava, decomposed granite, pine bark.
 
I dont think turface is a bad soil component, but I do believe it has been misused. Its pros: it doesnt break down, it has a high CEC because its clay. Cons: small particle size, and a ton of fines when unsifted, it requires multiple waterings to fully penetrate the entire medium(prone to dry spots).

Now, I have used Turface for about four years. First year I used it 100% and I was pleased with the results, no complaints. I noticed the dry spots while watering, but just watered it another 2, 3, 4 times... Second year, did much of the same, but decided I was going to experiement in the third year. Third year, I did 50:50 turface and pumice. Wow, the results!! This whole time I thought turface was a great soil, it was mediocre. Now that my eyes were opened, I increased the soil mix to be more pumice and less turface. It leads me to ask myself, why not do without turface all together? I am still trying to figure out an affordable supply of lava, but my plan is to begin experimenting with lava and pumice. I will probably phase out all use of turface over the next few repotting seasons. It was ok for the time-being, but I am moving on to better things.

Patrick
 
And so testing the ball bearing idea, using rounded gravel that was more or less 4 to 5mm in size, with just compost.
Tree type was a local ficus. It grows well and aggressively.

So then simple marbles were tested, with compost, this time a tamarind was tried, looks weird but grows well.

Also tried were the expanded clay balls for hydroponics and compost, with another local ficus.
Grows well.

Seems that the answer is air supply, and control of moisture in the soil. Drains well, has air spaces and retains however much moisture you need [ the expanded balls and compost.]

But then the simple mix already in use had no problems.and the J.B.pines were already using gravel and compost.

The idea seems to just be air supply, how moist your atmosphere is to need stuff to retain water and how well it drains.

BUT if you are doing a great deal of collecting and aggressive root removal, then you have to shift to how nurseries grow cuttings. Misting the air and only wetting the soil when you first re-plant the tree.
A few old tamarinds [ about 8 years ] were collected and all one can do is wet the soil and keep the air moist, you're not even supposed to wet tamarind leaves as they come down with a white fungus.
This will go on for about 4 to 6 months.

So perhaps all of these problems are related to other than the soil ingredients???????
Good Day
Anthony
 
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As most mentioned. I too would love to use more pumice if it is locally available.
I use Dry Stall for pumice. It is available at stores for farm and horse supplies. Here in Georgia, I have bought it from Southern States stores.
 
I use Dry Stall for pumice. It is available at stores for farm and horse supplies. Here in Georgia, I have bought it from Southern States stores.

Thanks but I contacted the owner years ago and she informed me they do not supply here in TX...not enough demand apparently.
 
And so testing the ball bearing idea, using rounded gravel that was more or less 4 to 5mm in size, with just compost.
Tree type was a local ficus. It grows well and aggressively.

So then simple marbles were tested, with compost, this time a tamarind was tried, looks weird but grows well.

Also tried were the expanded clay balls for hydroponics and compost, with another local ficus.
Grows well.

Seems that the answer is air supply, and control of moisture in the soil. Drains well, has air spaces and retains however much moisture you need [ the expanded balls and compost.]

But then the simple mix already in use had no problems.and the J.B.pines were already using gravel and compost.

The idea seems to just be air supply, how moist your atmosphere is to need stuff to retain water and how well it drains.

BUT if you are doing a great deal of collecting and aggressive root removal, then you have to shift to how nurseries grow cuttings. Misting the air and only wetting the soil when you first re-plant the tree.
A few old tamarinds [ about 8 years ] were collected and all one can do is wet the soil and keep the air moist, you're not even supposed to wet tamarind leaves as they come down with a white fungus.
This will go on for about 4 to 6 months.

So perhaps all of these problems are related to other than the soil ingredients???????
Good Day
Anthony

Correct, its related to watering habits. I think we established that already. The debate as I see it is whether there is a soil that makes watering a little more brainless versus any other soil?
 
I'm going to get some seedlings and test turface based soil vs non-turface based soil. I only have space and time for a small batch (maybe 10 plants)...anyone else interested in doing something similar? The more samples we have, the more useful/reliable our results would be.

Chris
 
Nathan,

the most brainless, would be the marbles and compost.
Especially if you could obtain marbles at 5 or 4 mm.

The compost used here is sifted through a 5mm seive, but particle sizes are down to 1mm.
The particles are unrecognizable, just dark.

What was observed is the tree immediately begins to feed on the organic material and growth was even, and continues to be even.
Very little is needed, and you can control the water retention easily, just use less compost.

Please note, repotted plants are treated as individuals. Those with little root are in bright light and protected from the wind. Watering is very infrequent and thorough when done.
Often being left alone until new buds break and extend a few inches. Compact growth is not expected, returning to health is the only importance.
Good Day
Anthony

* No fertiliser as the compost is nutrious enough.
 
Nathan,

the most brainless, would be the marbles and compost.
Especially if you could obtain marbles at 5 or 4 mm.

The compost used here is sifted through a 5mm seive, but particle sizes are down to 1mm.
The particles are unrecognizable, just dark.

What was observed is the tree immediately begins to feed on the organic material and growth was even, and continues to be even.
Very little is needed, and you can control the water retention easily, just use less compost.

Please note, repotted plants are treated as individuals. Those with little root are in bright light and protected from the wind. Watering is very infrequent and thorough when done.
Often being left alone until new buds break and extend a few inches. Compact growth is not expected, returning to health is the only importance.
Good Day
Anthony

* No fertiliser as the compost is nutrious enough.

Well there you go Midwestern United States marbles and compost. Sounds heavy
 
Root mass density, vigor, mychorizae density, and the subsequent vigor--this was observed with both jbp and ponderosa.

Patrick,

I cannot help but infer that you
  • have no comparative pictures
    • of roots
    • showing general vigor
    • etc.
  • did not conduct a comparative experiement growing JBPs (and/or Ponderosas), some in Turface and some in the better stuff
  • have no measurement data demonstrating the differences

Thanks, anyway.
 
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