SOIL WARS episode IV

[Colorado]

Go figure that where this conversation left off is where this next Mirai podcast picks up. The more bonsai specific conversation begins about 35 minutes in (roughly) though, like the last one, if the sciencey side of horticulture and bonsai bore you, you’ll probably find this dry and “wordy”. That said I think Ryan only says the phrase “narrative arc” once in this one! This one delves pretty deeply into biochar/charcoal and it’s benefits as well as a plethora of other seaweed, microbe and fungus based soil topics. Another good one imho.

Fungi and Bacteria with Karen O’Hanlon

Podcast Episode · Bonsai Mirai: Asymmetry · 12/14/2022 · 1h 40m

podcasts.apple.com

Fungi and Bacteria with Karen O’Hanlon

Founder of Probio Carbon—Dr. Karen O'Hanlon joins us from Ireland to share her rigorous knowledge about fungi, bacteria, nutrition, and bonsai biology. Her new product Danú was developed in 2021 specifically for the bonsai community and has helped to increase plant health and cultivation for...

www.podbean.com

…and Karen O’Hanlon’s site

Probio Carbon | Plant Feed Organic Fertiliser | Maynooth Kildare

From our base in Kildare probio carbon provides growers with a range of plant feed and enriched carbon products. Our organic fertiliser is available to clients nationwide.

www.probiocarbon.ie

I ordered the “Bonsai Bucket” from her site, looking forward to giving it a try!

 

[ChristianDGreat]

I don't buy the chunky charcoal, I use The Andersons BioChar as it breaks down into the soil giving me a better coverage instead of little chunks here and there.

How long are you using this @Maiden69 ?
Do you notice a difference when you start using it?

Thanks
Chris

 

[Maiden69]

How long are you using this @Maiden69 ?
Do you notice a difference when you start using it?

Thanks
Chris

I have been using it on my lawn since 2019, and adding it to bonsai soil since mid 2020. IDK if there is any difference, but I can tell you that I seen growth on my trees that I have not seen in other trees here. But that may be fertilization, watering, etc... so many other variables.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

I don't buy the chunky charcoal, I use The Andersons BioChar as it breaks down into the soil giving me a better coverage instead of little chunks here and there.

Imho there are two ways of looking at this. It depends on one’s goals.

Easily broken down charcoal has a large surface area that allows the endobacteria etc to break it down faster and deliver it to the plant roots in ones media, garden, lawn. In other words, you are giving a quickly spent paycheck to the rhizosphere.

Using chunkier charcoal, even though it may be 1/16-1/8”, takes longer to be broken down. This takes much longer for the endobacteria etc to breakdown and deliver. imho while it exists, each Biochar chunk serves as the nuclei creating a mid term rhizospheric microecosystem. In other words the larger chunks contribute additional value to the soil over a longer time period.

Granted it’s still “particulate organic matter” so it’s value is not as long lasting as “mineral associated organic matter”

So breaking down the Biochar chunks serves to deliver carbon faster to the plant roots…. giving a quick ”hit” of carbon to the plants.

While chunky Biochar doesn’t give as quick a “hit” of carbon, but provides additional more lasting goods and services to the rhizosphere.

Of course in bonsai particle size is a big consideration.

The conundrum with Biochar for lawns, gardens and bonsai is to deliver the product to get maximum benefit to the soil/media and thus plants. This means Biochar delivered into the soil/media, rather then on the surface. So easier to do for bonsai and gardens.

Cheers
DSD sends

PS: I mentioned on another thread that Karen O’Hanlon of Probio Carbon is in the final stages of securing a US distributor of her products. Karen was talking a couple weeks. I asked her to notify me. When/If she does, I’ll post the news as a general announcement.

 

[Maiden69]

Easily broken down charcoal has a large surface area that allows the endobacteria etc to break it down faster and deliver it to the plant roots in ones media, garden, lawn. In other words, you are giving a quickly spent paycheck to the rhizosphere.

I guess I am using the BioChar a different way, not interested in giving the roots a boost of carbon as for the longest time I thought that the main benefit of it was its great CeC properties and water retention. The Andersons BioChar, which is the one I use breaks down into small particles as soon as water hits them. This little particles are the ones that attract nutrients to provide them to the plants, instead of said nutrients flowing through the substrate and out of the container. I am not using organic fertilizer at this time other than fish fertilizer. What I like about this one is that instead of 10% biochar concentrated in some areas of the pot, once dispersed the DG the particles are able to flow between the substrate providing a more even distribution inside the pot.

This are the benefits I am looking for, quoted from The Andersons website.

• Improves soil health with particles designed to attract nutrients, beneficial bacteria, microbes, and water, making all of these more available for plants
• Builds rich, carbon-heavy soil that requires less fertilizer for plant growth
• Features DG Technology, which allows particles to disperse with water, moving immediately into the soil
• Easy-to-apply spherical, uniform, low-dust formulation
• Ideal for seeding and composting applications on lawns, gardens, flower beds, potted plants, etc.
• BioChar lasts in the soil for years, helping build the soil profile over time.
• Environmentally friendly, OMRI listed. User friendly; can be blended with fertilizers, alongside any fertilizer program, or used alone

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

Imho there are two ways of looking at this. It depends on one’s goals.

Easily broken down charcoal has a large surface area that allows the endobacteria etc to break it down faster and deliver it to the plant roots in ones media, garden, lawn. In other words, you are giving a quickly spent paycheck to the rhizosphere.

Using chunkier charcoal, even though it may be 1/16-1/8”, takes longer to be broken down. This takes much longer for the endobacteria etc to breakdown and deliver. imho while it exists, each Biochar chunk serves as the nuclei creating a mid term rhizospheric microecosystem. In other words the larger chunks contribute additional value to the soil over a longer time period.

Granted it’s still “particulate organic matter” so it’s value is not as long lasting as “mineral associated organic matter”

So breaking down the Biochar chunks serves to deliver carbon faster to the plant roots…. giving a quick ”hit” of carbon to the plants.

While chunky Biochar doesn’t give as quick a “hit” of carbon, but provides additional more lasting goods and services to the rhizosphere.

Of course in bonsai particle size is a big consideration.

The conundrum with Biochar for lawns, gardens and bonsai is to deliver the product to get maximum benefit to the soil/media and thus plants. This means Biochar delivered into the soil/media, rather then on the surface. So easier to do for bonsai and gardens.

Cheers
DSD sends

PS: I mentioned on another thread that Karen O’Hanlon of Probio Carbon is in the final stages of securing a US distributor of her products. Karen was talking a couple weeks. I asked her to notify me. When/If she does, I’ll post the news as a general announcement.

If we want quick hits of carbon, there's always sucrose and fructose. Those both act almost immediately and don't require any microbial meddling. I wouldn't recommend doing that in a pot, because yeasts.. But still, I've done it and it works.

I'm actively wondering if it's the charcoal providing the carbon, or the microbes do that die and get broken down. Might just be that the charcoal only acts as a stable environment for them to thrive in, and less as a carbon source of itself. It seems that ProBio's own page agrees somewhat:

It acts as a food source for plants and beneficial fungi at the cell death stage.

Having more microbes that capture carbon from wherever (wood fiber, air, decaying plant mater, organic soil fractions, fed/released carbohydrates by the plant), and release happy chemicals for plants, is beneficial. But I can't find anything about the charcoal acting as a carbon source for these microbes. I'm sure it is, in some way or form. Maybe Dr. O'Hanlon can provide some of these details for us. But I know from my own microbiological studies that charcoal is usually only used to capture exudates and not regularly as a carbon source by itself. Bacteria and fungi have a real hard time breaking down charcoal, especially since charcoal has lost a lot of hydrogen bonds, which makes it difficult for enzymes to latch on.

Back when the first thread on the podcast started, I foretold we'd get a lot of weird myths going around and it might be wise to get clarification ASAP to not start drifting away from the actual facts. I'm not trying to be a jerk, just want to have a civilized discussion on what is, and what isn't.

 

[Maiden69]

Might just be that the charcoal only acts as a stable environment for them to thrive in, and less as a carbon source of itself.

This.

I was always under the impression that carbon takes millenniums to decompose and it is because of this that we do "carbon dating."

Interesting read, if you like reading this kind of stuff, which I hated and now find interesting.

Biochar: A Sustainable Approach for Improving Plant Growth and Soil Properties

Soil is the most important source and an abode for many nutrients and microflora. Due to rapid depletion of agricultural areas and soil quality by means of ever-increasing population and an excessive addition of chemical fertilizers, a rehabilitated attention is a need of the hour to maintain...

www.intechopen.com

 

[ChristianDGreat]

But since we are repotting quickly (2-5yrs) are we saying Granular(like Anderson DG that disolve easily) will fit bonsai better?

 

[ChristianDGreat]

Imho there are two ways of looking at this. It depends on one’s goals.

Easily broken down charcoal has a large surface area that allows the endobacteria etc to break it down faster and deliver it to the plant roots in ones media, garden, lawn. In other words, you are giving a quickly spent paycheck to the rhizosphere.

Using chunkier charcoal, even though it may be 1/16-1/8”, takes longer to be broken down. This takes much longer for the endobacteria etc to breakdown and deliver. imho while it exists, each Biochar chunk serves as the nuclei creating a mid term rhizospheric microecosystem. In other words the larger chunks contribute additional value to the soil over a longer time period.

Granted it’s still “particulate organic matter” so it’s value is not as long lasting as “mineral associated organic matter”

So breaking down the Biochar chunks serves to deliver carbon faster to the plant roots…. giving a quick ”hit” of carbon to the plants.

While chunky Biochar doesn’t give as quick a “hit” of carbon, but provides additional more lasting goods and services to the rhizosphere.

Of course in bonsai particle size is a big consideration.

The conundrum with Biochar for lawns, gardens and bonsai is to deliver the product to get maximum benefit to the soil/media and thus plants. This means Biochar delivered into the soil/media, rather then on the surface. So easier to do for bonsai and gardens.

Cheers
DSD sends

PS: I mentioned on another thread that Karen O’Hanlon of Probio Carbon is in the final stages of securing a US distributor of her products. Karen was talking a couple weeks. I asked her to notify me. When/If she does, I’ll post the news as a general announcement.

You can order from her already, i ordered mine. Its just costly shipping. But its worth to test.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Thanks for the reply. I actually studied the product.

I'm actively wondering if it's the charcoal providing the carbon, or the microbes do that die and get broken down. Might just be that the charcoal only acts as a stable environment for them to thrive in, and less as a carbon source of itself.

Thanks, just giving a quick shot at a very complex issue. I should of known better.

Carbon does both, psuedo stable environment spurring microbal diversity and feedstock. It depends on the timeframe. Dunno how one would measure the overall benefit of each point as it’s all one.

Enhancing growth and diversity of critters within leads to death and decomposition, another benefit.

The initial point was longevity of a Biochar product with a large vs small surface area. Also as a side issue, product delivery.

Here’s a very simplified diagram illustrating the lifespan of particulate organic matter” vs “mineral associated organic matter”.

The resulting benefit of the Biochar particulate organic matter is all a matter of surface area (and size) of the particulate organic matter.




As for Biochar stimulated plant performance and the benefit to rhizosphere…. I think this is a good starter study.

https://pubmed.ncibi.nlm.nih.gov/27780299/

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

But since we are repotting quickly (2-5yrs) are we saying Granular(like Anderson DG that disolve easily) will fit bonsai better?

Hmm…. I see two potential issues.

1. How much of the product will wash out during repeated watering cycles. Initially a lot based upon my experiences with small particle Biocha.

2. A goal when creating media in bonsai tends to be to use particles of similar size, allowing the interstitial spaces to be uniform, allowing O2/H2O flushing and maximum delivery of nutrients, promoting growth.

Adding smaller particles to a uniform media causes these spaces to clog with the smaller particles, decreasing the effectiveness of the flushing and delivery.

The best solution imho is add a Biochar particle of equal size.

Yet a nagging thought I always have in bonsai matters boils down to the first rule of Bonsai “It depends”. This leads me down a very old rabbit hole….

Would a little clogging with Biochar yield more benefit then loss? What would this look like? How would this be measured/delivered? Would the resultant growth outweigh the potential accelerated repotting needs? etc. etc. etc.

Bonsai rabbit holes can get very deep!

cheers
DSD sends

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

All that said about longevity @Maiden69 adding Biochar is a good thing.

Hmm…. The reference posted above seems to bounce about half the time on my iPad.

Biochar-stimulated plant performance is strongly linked to microbial diversity and metabolic potential in the rhizosphere​

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

Thanks for taking the time to make it clear for us @Deep Sea Diver !
I think the clogging issue will be minimal. I've seen people say the same things about bark, about sand, and about organics. Now I repot too often, that's a fact. But I'd expect sand to clog within a year or two because I also overwater like crazy and my soils are lacking akadama completely so there's nothing to stick onto.
But fact of the matter is.. I haven't found any sand near my pot holes. The only things clogging my pot holes are worm castings, roots and fungi. And this only seems to happen with pots on trays.

A couple months ago I started making my own charcoal, and I'm using crushed charcoal dust as a top dressing. The chunky parts are going to be used in repotting. It's been raining for the entire time and I'm betting that come spring at repotting time, I'm not going to find any charcoal deeper than a centimeter into the soil. The same thing happened with sand. With the uneven distribution of particle sizes and shapes in bonsai soil, I'd expect smaller particles to sieve through the soil in a very irregular manner, maybe so irregular that it can wash straight out before it clogs.
But we'll see. I'll make sure to report my findings.

 

[Maiden69]

As a clarification post, this is the kind of break down the BioChar I use does. Not the same as small particles that can clog the flow of water through the substrate. All those little particles attach to the substrate and improve their CeC, maybe it is just a placebo effect, but I think I can see a difference from before I used it to now.



I used both HumiChar and BioChar, but since I started supplementing with NPK Industries Humic/Fulvic/Kelp I use the BioChar as it is slightly cheaper.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Interesting.

I have been testing Wakefield Biochar for almost a year with quite a number of azaleas. The information is posted on this thread.

Wakefield Biochar has very small, consistent particle size 1/32 -1/16”. The product was applied two ways.

1. In the media 90/10 Kanuma/pumice about 3/16”. In this case it appeared there was a lot of washout. So I switched to the next method.

2. On the surface after initial washout. In this case the product was rinsed in after being mixed into the top 1/4” of the surface media. Not as much washout.

I likely will not know for another year if the Biochar actually stayed in and/or penetrated throughout the media.

When initially thinking about the use of Biochar, I wondered if perhaps the aggregate effect might also come into play to contribute to clogging.

Also that it was going to be interesting whether the roots would be stimulated so much that this is where the clogging effect (top 1/3 of media being azaleas) would show up. In other words, it would be hard determine the cause without a similar size same cultivar set of controls.

Presently I’m left wondering what this all might actually look like down the line.

cheers
DSD sends

 

[C-A-N-Bonsai]

First post alert. Lol.

I have been in the salt water reef aquarium hobby for well over a decade and just starting to dabble into bonsai, carbon dosing (adding something like vodka, vinegar, or some kind of sugar) has been a big deal for “super charging” bacterial growth to allow for cleaner water and increased feeding. I haven’t listened to this podcast yet but listening to your discourse I feel right at home. Lol.

In the reef hobby community there is something commonly parroted called the red field ratio which roughly says about 100 parts of carbon are required by bacteria to reduce 1 part of nitrate, then about 16 parts of nitrate are required by bacteria to reduce one part of phosphate.

From the outside in the concept of adding carbon to a soil complex seems like a method to ramp up bacterial action to allow for increased feeding to the roots through a bacterial process.

I’ll listen to the podcast tonight.

Cool stuff, love seeing some overlap.

 

[Orion_metalhead]

First post alert. Lol.

I have been in the salt water reef aquarium hobby for well over a decade and just starting to dabble into bonsai, carbon dosing (adding something like vodka, vinegar, or some kind of sugar) has been a big deal for “super charging” bacterial growth to allow for cleaner water and increased feeding. I haven’t listened to this podcast yet but listening to your discourse I feel right at home. Lol.

In the reef hobby community there is something commonly parroted called the red field ratio which roughly says about 100 parts of carbon are required by bacteria to reduce 1 part of nitrate, then about 16 parts of nitrate are required by bacteria to reduce one part of phosphate.

From the outside in the concept of adding carbon to a soil complex seems like a method to ramp up bacterial action to allow for increased feeding to the roots through a bacterial process.

I’ll listen to the podcast tonight.

Cool stuff, love seeing some overlap.

In hot compisting 30:1 carbon to nitrogen is typical.

 

[yashu]

First post alert. Lol.

I have been in the salt water reef aquarium hobby for well over a decade and just starting to dabble into bonsai, carbon dosing (adding something like vodka, vinegar, or some kind of sugar) has been a big deal for “super charging” bacterial growth to allow for cleaner water and increased feeding. I haven’t listened to this podcast yet but listening to your discourse I feel right at home. Lol.

In the reef hobby community there is something commonly parroted called the red field ratio which roughly says about 100 parts of carbon are required by bacteria to reduce 1 part of nitrate, then about 16 parts of nitrate are required by bacteria to reduce one part of phosphate.

From the outside in the concept of adding carbon to a soil complex seems like a method to ramp up bacterial action to allow for increased feeding to the roots through a bacterial process.

I’ll listen to the podcast tonight.

Cool stuff, love seeing some overlap.

Welcome!!!

There are a good handful of folks on here who are also reef aquarium keepers.

 

[Glaucus]

If the soil has too much carbon, it will have a lot of microbial growth. And those can take up a lot of the nitrogen, or other minerals. So if you have a carbon rich, nitrogen poor soil, the plant may not be able to use said nitrogen. When if the plant had just that nitrogen, and there was no carbon, it would be fine.

For soils, a C:N of 24:1 is considered ideal. And this relates to all composts/mulches, cover crops, and organic fertilizer. So those with a higher ratio or lower ratio which will either potentially add too much of one or the other.
There is a whole wikipedia article about it:

Carbon-to-nitrogen ratio - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

There's also said to be ideal ratios between fungi and bacteria. Where I think often bacteria take carbon from the soils, but fungi take carbon from the plant roots. So changing F:B ratio can be done by changing fertilizer C:N ratio, potentially.

 

[C-A-N-Bonsai]

Same with a reef tank, I would just add sodium nitrate to keep building bacterial populations to be able to remove more phosphate, to have cleaner water for my corals (would you just add more nitrogen to compensate for the added demand)

Something I need to learn more about in bonsai is if I’m using a course inorganic substrate and using inorganic fertilizers do I really need to supercharge the bacteria with carbon dosing.

I just ripped through the 17 page “soil theory” thread, which was awesome, now trying to understand some of the bacterial nuances.