SOIL WARS episode IV
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Shohin
This makes me think about Dan Robinson and the fact he uses lava, pumice, and fir bark. And also doesn't report his trees. He has some different ideas about what he likes for vigor in trees; but it leads me to think that it is a stable long term mix that has carbon in it.
He also fertilizes with miracle grow, but has the rainy Pacific winter to flush out any toxicity.
He also fertilizes with miracle grow, but has the rainy Pacific winter to flush out any toxicity.
ChristianDGreat
Shohin
I listen to it while driving to the Pacific Expo.
It was interesting.
Carbon is the one that got stuck to me.
Quick question guys.. is adding Charcoal a good way to add carbon?
I notice that on KOYABASHI Akadama that it has some carbon into it.
Thanks
Chris
It was interesting.
Carbon is the one that got stuck to me.
Quick question guys.. is adding Charcoal a good way to add carbon?
I notice that on KOYABASHI Akadama that it has some carbon into it.
Thanks
Chris
Glaucus
Omono
The carbon part is really confusing.
No, charcoal would not work.
If building molecules is like k'nex, carbon is like a node atom to which you attach all other atoms.
One form of carbon is CO2, which is the lowest energy level (most oxidized). CO2 is basically inert, and one needs to put in energy to create other carbon molecules.
Things like charcoal (and diamond) are the other extreme, the most energetic form of carbon (most reduced).
The atoms in our bodies, in our food, and in plants are all in between carbon and CO2. Which is why we don't eat coal or drink oil
The classical view is that plants get carbon from the air. They take in CO2 and use sunlight to make sugars.
Plants get energy from light, and they get low energy state carbon from CO2.
And from the soil, they get the molecules that contain the other types of atoms that they need to build molecules. Hydrogen atoms from water. The famous NPK, nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium. But also trace amounts of metal ions.
We humans get both our energy and our carbon from sugars, amino acids, fatty acids.
So their whole mentioning of carbon in fertilizer is a bit confusing. They ought to be saying 'organic molecules', for one. And then the question is which ones, and what is their function?
Akadama contains some organic material, ie humus/compost that was kinda mineralized ie sedimented with the actual rock in akadama. Which is why in the podcast they speculate that time turns this component of akadama literally back into soil.
Plants in the shade are hypothesized to get their calories from the soil, fed to them by the rhizosphere, which is supplied by the largest trees that catch all the light.
And it is hypothesized that this is a deliberate strategy through which the largest trees deliberately release sugars/organic molecules/calories/carbon to the rhizosphere, trying to specifically target their own seedlings that grow in their shade.
The other theory is the benefit of humic acid. And that is a big debate that seems to be unanswered currently as well. In which way both are connected is unclear. To me it seems unlikely that the first process occurs through humic acid.
How this connects with the story in the podcast and how this guy 'supplies carbon' in the bonsai fertilizer and their 'reqs' is unclear to me.
No, charcoal would not work.
If building molecules is like k'nex, carbon is like a node atom to which you attach all other atoms.
One form of carbon is CO2, which is the lowest energy level (most oxidized). CO2 is basically inert, and one needs to put in energy to create other carbon molecules.
Things like charcoal (and diamond) are the other extreme, the most energetic form of carbon (most reduced).
The atoms in our bodies, in our food, and in plants are all in between carbon and CO2. Which is why we don't eat coal or drink oil
The classical view is that plants get carbon from the air. They take in CO2 and use sunlight to make sugars.
Plants get energy from light, and they get low energy state carbon from CO2.
And from the soil, they get the molecules that contain the other types of atoms that they need to build molecules. Hydrogen atoms from water. The famous NPK, nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium. But also trace amounts of metal ions.
We humans get both our energy and our carbon from sugars, amino acids, fatty acids.
So their whole mentioning of carbon in fertilizer is a bit confusing. They ought to be saying 'organic molecules', for one. And then the question is which ones, and what is their function?
Akadama contains some organic material, ie humus/compost that was kinda mineralized ie sedimented with the actual rock in akadama. Which is why in the podcast they speculate that time turns this component of akadama literally back into soil.
Plants in the shade are hypothesized to get their calories from the soil, fed to them by the rhizosphere, which is supplied by the largest trees that catch all the light.
And it is hypothesized that this is a deliberate strategy through which the largest trees deliberately release sugars/organic molecules/calories/carbon to the rhizosphere, trying to specifically target their own seedlings that grow in their shade.
The other theory is the benefit of humic acid. And that is a big debate that seems to be unanswered currently as well. In which way both are connected is unclear. To me it seems unlikely that the first process occurs through humic acid.
How this connects with the story in the podcast and how this guy 'supplies carbon' in the bonsai fertilizer and their 'reqs' is unclear to me.
BrianBay9
Masterpiece
So is anyone specifically adding glucose, amino acids, simple organic acids to their fertilizer mix? Some are using humic acid I guess. Everyone else just assuming these are part of organic fertilizers? Aside from generating a sticky bench I guess it wouldn't hurt much to give it a try. The problem with most of these discussions is that most of us are not in a position to design and execute a controlled experiment to make definitive conclusions.
Youll just get quick growth of some nasty stuff that then dies off. Not helping. Use pine bark, you want something that breaks down slowly. Or some of the specific compounds cmeg knows all about. Or organic ferts
Glaucus
Omono
If you use organic fertilizer, you have all kinds of biomacromolecules, which are of course organic chemistry. Could be manure, compost, bone meal, etc etc. And that will of course contain a lot of carbon.
Bacteria break it down into smaller pieces. The roots then take up these so the plant gets NPK. And maybe also 'carbon'/energy?
In contract, inorganic fertilizer is just a bunch of salts that dissolve in water and the ions contain the NPK.
Like I said before, I don't know if we know what kind of organic molecules to add to an inorganic fertilizer to improve it. And if this effect is feeding the plant energy/calories directly through the roots in the form of sugars or amino acids.
Wires_Guy_wires
Imperial Masterpiece
Time to get back into the fermented molasses game.
I know some dudes are using easycarbo stuff from aquarium stores, which could be used as a potential sugar replacement in some tissue culture settings.
But the key thing about carbon molecules is that bacteria love the stuff and they eat faster than our trees.
I know some dudes are using easycarbo stuff from aquarium stores, which could be used as a potential sugar replacement in some tissue culture settings.
But the key thing about carbon molecules is that bacteria love the stuff and they eat faster than our trees.
hemmy
Omono
I believe when molasses was a byproduct it was used for crop fertilization. It has had a revival with home growers and the internet. I’ve never used it, but it has basic minerals and would certainly feed the bacterial. Whether that’s a good thing in a pot, I don’t know. Plus it would seem like we’d wash it out with every watering.
hemmy
Omono
Ha! We must have been typing at the same time.
hemmy
Omono
The only other ‘carbon’ fertilizer I’ve heard of is this stuff out of Europe.
www.probiocarbon.ie
Is this biochar with bacteria added? Or is the carbon from some more complex sugar?
Probio Carbon | Plant Feed Organic Fertiliser | Maynooth Kildare
From our base in Kildare probio carbon provides growers with a range of plant feed and enriched carbon products. Our organic fertiliser is available to clients nationwide.
Is this biochar with bacteria added? Or is the carbon from some more complex sugar?
Its biochar with bacteria. No added sugarThe only other ‘carbon’ fertilizer I’ve heard of is this stuff out of Europe.
Probio Carbon | Plant Feed Organic Fertiliser | Maynooth Kildare
From our base in Kildare probio carbon provides growers with a range of plant feed and enriched carbon products. Our organic fertiliser is available to clients nationwide.
Is this biochar with bacteria added? Or is the carbon from some more complex sugar?
Actually I received 40L of the stuff today, as well as some liquid.
Deep Sea Diver
Imperial Masterpiece
This is a basic primer on types of carbon and it’s role in healthy soil. Sorta what @Glaucus was alluding to.
Yep, one might check out the price on Biochar in your area. It is getting reasonable in quantity here and works well in the media, garden and lawn. We get it in 1 cuft bags.
…. don’t see how ‘adding’ bacteria is anything except a sales point. The minute the Biochar is out of the hopper, all kind of microbes will get in the product from the air And find a really good home to play in!
cheers
DSD sends
Yep, one might check out the price on Biochar in your area. It is getting reasonable in quantity here and works well in the media, garden and lawn. We get it in 1 cuft bags.
…. don’t see how ‘adding’ bacteria is anything except a sales point. The minute the Biochar is out of the hopper, all kind of microbes will get in the product from the air And find a really good home to play in!
cheers
DSD sends
Glaucus
Omono
Oh I forgot the other reason of adding activated carbon/charcoal as a surface/absorption agent. But that has nothing to do about the chemistry element that I tried to cover.
As for the 'carbon in the soil', that is mostly about the soil itself. Soil is compost/humus/broken down organic material/plant matter. It contains a lot of organic material.
That is already understood adequately. But very important ant sometimes a big challenge to have good soil.
What I meant, trees trading energy/carbon through the soil, is more like this:
I can't stand in at all for the science in this video, as it is not my field. But it is certainly an interesting hypothesis.
And there are references, which I have not read.
So when they discussed 'carbon' in fertilizer in the podcast, I thought they were talking about something like this.
Not charcoal/activated carbon. Not soil/humus.
As for the 'carbon in the soil', that is mostly about the soil itself. Soil is compost/humus/broken down organic material/plant matter. It contains a lot of organic material.
That is already understood adequately. But very important ant sometimes a big challenge to have good soil.
What I meant, trees trading energy/carbon through the soil, is more like this:
I can't stand in at all for the science in this video, as it is not my field. But it is certainly an interesting hypothesis.
And there are references, which I have not read.
So when they discussed 'carbon' in fertilizer in the podcast, I thought they were talking about something like this.
Not charcoal/activated carbon. Not soil/humus.
Last edited:
ChristianDGreat
Shohin
Go figure that where this conversation left off is where this next Mirai podcast picks up. The more bonsai specific conversation begins about 35 minutes in (roughly) though, like the last one, if the sciencey side of horticulture and bonsai bore you, you’ll probably find this dry and “wordy”. That said I think Ryan only says the phrase “narrative arc” once in this one!
This one delves pretty deeply into biochar/charcoal and it’s benefits as well as a plethora of other seaweed, microbe and fungus based soil topics. Another good one imho.
podcasts.apple.com
www.podbean.com
…and Karen O’Hanlon’s site
www.probiocarbon.ie
This one delves pretty deeply into biochar/charcoal and it’s benefits as well as a plethora of other seaweed, microbe and fungus based soil topics. Another good one imho.
Fungi and Bacteria with Karen O’Hanlon
Podcast Episode · Bonsai Mirai: Asymmetry · 12/14/2022 · 1h 40m
podcasts.apple.com
Fungi and Bacteria with Karen O’Hanlon
Founder of Probio Carbon—Dr. Karen O'Hanlon joins us from Ireland to share her rigorous knowledge about fungi, bacteria, nutrition, and bonsai biology. Her new product Danú was developed in 2021 specifically for the bonsai community and has helped to increase plant health and cultivation for...
…and Karen O’Hanlon’s site
Probio Carbon | Plant Feed Organic Fertiliser | Maynooth Kildare
From our base in Kildare probio carbon provides growers with a range of plant feed and enriched carbon products. Our organic fertiliser is available to clients nationwide.
Maiden69
Masterpiece
last week he said this was coming out soon... surprised it took this long to push the charcoal bandwagon since Doc from HowtowithDoc has been pushing the use of biochar for a few years now for lawn care, and Boon has been adding it to his mix for years as well.
I’ve been adding a bag of Hoffman’s horticultural charcoal to my mix for some time but it was more on a “it seems right” hunch than any real science.
Maiden69
Masterpiece
I’ll look for that stuff. I generally go at the bag with a dead blow mallet after sifting so the Hoffmans definitely requires extra labor… and a fair amount is generally pulverized to dust in the process and ends up as waste.
