Soil Wars-Turface

Paul,

back in the 70's and early 80's Rodale used to publish a pocket book monthly with reports on folk growing - organically - from all over the world. One such article was on a lady from Estonia [ zones - 6/5 and 4 - http://www.gardenweb.com/zones/europe/hze2.html ]

What she demonstarted was an agricultural technique of just placed organic material on the surface of the soil. The seeds would do their own "ploughing".

If we observe the use of akadama from Japan, with the placing of composted oil cake, on the surface of the soil in the bonsai pot. Would that not be similar to the Estonian technique for growing crops.

Additionally, with the reading I had to do on roots in winter, for the topic dealing with using fertiliser in winter.

I would say that if a tree is subjected to a temperature near the 2 deg.C in a bonsai pot, chances are over winter, root damage would probably occur.
This might lead to the grower believing that the problem was the soil.

If fact even if someone were growing a hardy to say zone 4 tree, in a bonsai pot and not realizing that there is good chance that the first snow in a forest, with possibly the layer of humus present in the forest floor, would keep the roots warm enough to go dormant or grow, but not be chilled to death.
So the tree in the bonsai pot would go past the ,limit of say 2 deg.c and damage or die, as root /soil goes.

In other words, many of the problems being found on this list is simiply ignorance of specific Biology to each tree type.

However, anyone living in a zone 7 would just have to -mimic- the Japanese and get the same results, with no need for a deep understanding of anything.

All we did on our side, was say that as the root grew and the humus rotted, the particles could filter down into the open soil.
This was illustrated by an image shown in a book on carrot roots and how far away they could travel in rich open soils in nature.

By next year, we may be able to say with great confidence that all bonsai soil need be [ for us ] is just rounded silica gravel at 4 to 5mm and compost.
The gravel controlling the air spaces and drainage, the compost handling the moisture and nutrient requirement.

It was observed on IBC, watching Yvonne G., that she grew plants in a simple mix of for use in hydroponics, expanded clay and organic material, for over 20 years.
So the idea was tested, and one step further, marbles and compost.
Thus far everything grows well.

Then the air-pot, from Scotland, the colander idea, and still have to do, the smart pot.
The air-pot shown on youtube, uses just compost, and the idea here would be to see how well a tree handles 100% compost with more than adequate, access to air and drainage.

Theory - that one could design a window mesh [ stainless steel oil filters ] to fit into a bonsai pot when the tree has to be displayed.
But the tree keeps on growing in colander type conditions.

For maximum production of branchlets and smallest leaves, under full sun conditions.
______________________

Down here we use a core, and when repotting only 2.5 cm is removed from the sides and underneath of this core. Checks are made for enlarged roots.
The core is inorganic, and takes into accounts that roots also die and are replaced by other roots.
The idea here being that soil is renewed, but you don't interfere too much with the tree.

Eventually, pie cuts have to be made, to renew the core, but, the tree never has to be barerooted or enters a condition of having been bare rooted.

Thus far no problems. These as you know are very old Chinese and Japanese practices.
Good Day
Anthony
 
I waded through this thread filled with ummm, soil, and you definitely have the most useful information on this... what better to do then see for yourself what works best in your own region, and grow some plants in the process!!!

We should do 5 deciduous 5 conifer?

Are you going to start another thread on this experiment?

Well, if I do it I might start a thread.

Since I have limited time and space (and too many plants already), I would keep it relatively simple. I'd probably start with just deciduous seedlings, maybe tridents. I would separate them into groups:

(1) The control group would be a turface-based soil...so either plain turface or turface mixed with similarly-sized components such as granite grit and bark or sphagnum.

(2) The second group would be a pumice-based mix (maybe pumice and akadama, or pumice/akadama/lava) but using turface-sized particles. This would give a direct comparison between the particle types.

(3) Third group would be a pumice mixture but with larger-sized particles, to evaluate the importance of particle size/aeration.

(4) There might be a fourth group which would use mesh pots, pond baskets, something to let the maximum amount of air into the mix.

This breakdown is just off the top of my head as I haven't thought about it in great detail. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Again because of time/space limitations I'd probably only have 2-3 plants in each group, which isn't really enough to be statistically reliable...but if a particular soil is truly better in my conditions it should be obvious. If differences aren't obvious...then that is useful information as well.

Chris
 
Well, if I do it I might start a thread.

Since I have limited time and space (and too many plants already), I would keep it relatively simple. I'd probably start with just deciduous seedlings, maybe tridents. I would separate them into groups:

(1) The control group would be a turface-based soil...so either plain turface or turface mixed with similarly-sized components such as granite grit and bark or sphagnum.

(2) The second group would be a pumice-based mix (maybe pumice and akadama, or pumice/akadama/lava) but using turface-sized particles. This would give a direct comparison between the particle types.

(3) Third group would be a pumice mixture but with larger-sized particles, to evaluate the importance of particle size/aeration.

(4) There might be a fourth group which would use mesh pots, pond baskets, something to let the maximum amount of air into the mix.

This breakdown is just off the top of my head as I haven't thought about it in great detail. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Again because of time/space limitations I'd probably only have 2-3 plants in each group, which isn't really enough to be statistically reliable...but if a particular soil is truly better in my conditions it should be obvious. If differences aren't obvious...then that is useful information as well.

Chris

Matt is having his annual bare root seedling sale...just a thought.
http://kaedebonsai.com/2013/11/01/seedlings-are-on-now-sale-fall-is-here--opening-week-discount/

Just potted up 20 JBP/JRP in pond baskets.......and I used TURFACE:eek:....mixed with lava and pumice:o
 
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Guys, I can save you a little time. I've grown trees in just about every conceivable medium across the country except the northeast and the best I've used (not saying the best) is 80-85% 3/8 minus pumice with little fines and 15-20% organics. This a growing medium that is great for development and can be used in a bonsai pot but it's ugly. A top dressing is needed for showing. I can't post pictures but the results can be seen on my blog.

( the maximum amount of air into the mix.

This breakdown is just off the top of my head as I haven't thought about it in great detail. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Again because of time/space limitations I'd probably only have 2-3 plants in each group, which isn't really enough to be statistically reliable...but if a particular soil is truly better in my conditions it should be obvious. If differences aren't obvious...then that is useful information as well.

Chris[/QUOTE]


Well, if I do it I might start a thread
 
Thanks Gary,
What do you consider organics? I use 1/4 minus sifted fir bark for my organic component. My current mix is 1/3 sifted fir bark, 1/3 sifted lava or perlite, and 1/3 sifted pumice. It seems to work pretty well where I am and with my watering habits.
Ian
 
Thanks Gary,
What do you consider organics? I use 1/4 minus sifted fir bark for my organic component. My current mix is 1/3 sifted fir bark, 1/3 sifted lava or perlite, and 1/3 sifted pumice. It seems to work pretty well where I am and with my watering habits.
Ian

Ian, that looks like a pretty good mix. As long as there are plenty of aeration particles then size is less important (other than fines) If there are any particles in the soil they should serve a purpose. Aeration and water retention is the only requisite that a soil really needs and if the aeration particle provides sufficient drainage then it becomes a simple mix. Water and fertilize with sun makes strong growth.
 
coh, I'm down and will try a couple different species as I'm young with time to spare so I'll run similar experiments and see what happens, I believe you and I are only a zone or two away, max two actually, right? I'm in monmouth county new jersey, which is central nj

Garywood, unfortunately the only area you didn't test is in the area both coh and I am in, hence why we are even speaking about this imho. Not a lot of bonsai testing has been done in the northeast.


(I like how people will sometimes rip on me for going to buy trees at a nursery and styling all day while listening to music, while they watch Naruto or some cartoon and eat reeses pieces until they shit peanuts.)
 
Not a lot of bonsai testing has been done in the northeast.
Colin Lewis is up on Maine I believe, not much more north east in the US than that. International Bonsai (Bill Valavanis), Royal Bonsai Garden (Suthin) and New England Bonsai are all in Massachusetts. Chase Rosade is in Pennsylvania. I know there are more, but those are just the first few that come to mind and I'm not the most knowledgeable of that area since I live out west.

Listen to Gary Wood, he knows what he's talking about.

Who has been around long enough to remember the good ole days on bonsaiTalk when people with as much experience as I had at the time were telling Walter Pall how to grow and style trees? (Not trying to pick on youngsai here, but for some reason I've been reminded of that lately :) )
 
Guys, I can save you a little time. I've grown trees in just about every conceivable medium across the country except the northeast and the best I've used (not saying the best) is 80-85% 3/8 minus pumice with little fines and 15-20% organics. This a growing medium that is great for development and can be used in a bonsai pot but it's ugly. A top dressing is needed for showing. I can't post pictures but the results can be seen on my blog.

Thanks for sharing your experience.

The whole point of this is to determine whether it's worth the effort and cost to acquire pumice under my conditions...which means climate and my watering/fertilizing routine.

As has been noted before, many people have success with turface (which is easily accessible and cheap) despite the naysayers. If I don't get significantly better results using a pumice-based mixture of appropriate size, then there's really no point...and that's something I have to decide for myself.

Chris
 
coh, I'm down and will try a couple different species as I'm young with time to spare so I'll run similar experiments and see what happens, I believe you and I are only a zone or two away, max two actually, right? I'm in monmouth county new jersey, which is central nj
I'm in zone 6a, average lowest temp each winter is about -10F with a long, snowy winter...summers are quite mild with few days above 90.

Chris
 
Colin Lewis is up on Maine I believe, not much more north east in the US than that. International Bonsai (Bill Valavanis), Royal Bonsai Garden (Suthin) and New England Bonsai are all in Massachusetts. Chase Rosade is in Pennsylvania. I know there are more, but those are just the first few that come to mind and I'm not the most knowledgeable of that area since I live out west.

Listen to Gary Wood, he knows what he's talking about.

Who has been around long enough to remember the good ole days on bonsaiTalk when people with as much experience as I had at the time were telling Walter Pall how to grow and style trees? (Not trying to pick on youngsai here, but for some reason I've been reminded of that lately :) )


Oh no worries, I didn't take it as picking on me. I'd be foolish to pretend I know more on this than anyone on this forum, I only said that because the northeast is the only place garywood said he did not test, which to me meant the northeast still could use testing. But your saying other masters have tested turface in this area and judged it to be inferior?


And I know there are a lot of good bonsai teachers out here, I just wish one would teach me :/
Luckily I have an ocean full of teachers here! I do still wish I could get some good advanced styling lessons besides 2 workshops a year. I do bonsai at least 75% of my free time and would love to apprentice with any of the names you just gave...
 
I have not spoken in depth with Bill V on soil, however, in the few questions I threw at him about soil when I was at his place, I mentioned turface and he never seemed to make any mention of it being inferior, and I know he has used it for sure. He(International Bonsai) is in Rochester, NY.
 
I have looked for other materials here in Syracuse, NY, no luck. However my mix of equal parts bark,turface,granite grit is not only readily available to me but 150lbs of soil costs me 35 bucks. Thats 1 50lb bag of each, not pallets or trucks. So to me its a combination of effectiveness, cost and availablity.
 
Pmalelis so by that logic, if a 50/50 pumice/lava mix was av available material for you, you would buy it?
 
I've given this thread some thought over the last week. I've used turface for about three years. Just this last year, I was bemoaning the fact that my trees don't seem to be thriving. Starting next repotting season I plan to eliminate turface from my mix and we'll see if what difference it makes.
 
I've given this thread some thought over the last week. I've used turface for about three years. Just this last year, I was bemoaning the fact that my trees don't seem to be thriving. Starting next repotting season I plan to eliminate turface from my mix and we'll see if what difference it makes.

So, if you see an effect, how will you know that it is not due to the weather or your fertilizing regime (among an abundant number of other possibilities)?

Imagine what you will, but the moral of this anti-Turface story really is: don't put shit on your Turface. However, if you choose to use poo-balls/poo-cakes, you should not use Turface. Pumice, is probably not a good idea either.
 
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Pumice is avail in a product called dry stall. Used for horse stalls and can be bought at farm supply stores. Costs about $18 for a forty lb bag.

Everyone shoul be able to get it.

Augustine
 
Pumice is avail in a product called dry stall. Used for horse stalls and can be bought at farm supply stores. Costs about $18 for a forty lb bag.

Everyone shoul be able to get it.

Augustine
I wish, but it is not available here.
 
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