Soil Wars-Turface

[Poink88]

Interesting post (turface related) from Walter here http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?13520-10-year-repot

The article about collecting trees is twenty years old. In the meanwhile I have learned about modern substrates and suggest pure pumice, turface, vulcanic grit, hard akadama or similar for old conifers. For broadleaved trees the same, only in addition 15 to 20 volume % of rough peat of coconut fibers. Cheap akadama kills trees in winter where if freezes and is much worse than cheap turface.

 

[Walter Pall]

The reported problems with turface could have been caused by improper watering. Most bonsai books and most bonsai oldtimers tell you how important it is to not water too little and not too much, that over-watering is the main reason for dead bonsai. This is true with old fashioned soils as they were recommended twenty years ago. Since abut fifteen years most Americans use modern substrate in one form or another (also akadama is modern substrate). Nobody told them that you MUST water more and there is little chance of over-watering but there is the serious danger of under-watering. Since the overwhelming majority of those who use modern substrate follow still the old watering rules they in fact are seriously under-watering their trees. This is less of a problem with akadama as it holds more water longer. This, I believe, is the reason that akadama is recommended over turface. If one usess turface or similar with some additions of either rough peat or coconut fibers or similar one should water every day abundantly and there will be no problems with turface of similar.
I plant ALL of my trees in baked loam, which is the equivalent of turface, since many years with great results.

 

[discusmike]

I've never had issues with turface, but I've had akadama collapse on me over the winter, it was the double red line, don't believe it was the hard stuff, will try again with the hard stuff, it does work well for me in the hot months though.

 

[Poink88]

The reported problems with turface could have been caused by improper watering.

Most likely what happened to me with my big (and lush) azalea. I used about 95% turface on it and water little because I was warned numerous time not to over water azalea.

Thanks Walter! I would hate to move away from Turface since it is the cheapest good substrate available to me locally. I can now use it as planned (mostly turface substrate but amended) and sleep better at night.

 

[discusmike]

I have a few satzukis and it seems they can never get enough water during the growiing season, who did you hear that from?

 

[Poink88]

I have a few satzukis and it seems they can never get enough water during the growiing season, who did you hear that from?

Several...as posted here. http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?8324-Urban-Yamadori-Azalea

 

[discusmike]

My sats. Are in haydite, turface and mostly peat, and they still dry out quick in the summer.

 

[discusmike]

That was after collection, that's diffrent.

 

[Poink88]

That was after collection, that's diffrent.

True, but 6 months later...it is one of the most thirsty plant I have in my yard.

 

[wireme]

And that could be another discussion topic there, ie less water to newly collected trees. With a course free draining substrate I fertilize weekly and water newly collected stuff daily. That's a very general statement though, a lot depends on the size shape and composition of the mountain soil rootball.

 

[lordy]

Most likely what happened to me with my big (and lush) azalea. I used about 95% turface on it and water little because I was warned numerous time not to over water azalea.

Thanks Walter! I would hate to move away from Turface since it is the cheapest good substrate available to me locally. I can now use it as planned (mostly turface substrate but amended) and sleep better at night.

Poink, you have mentioned numerous times about how hot and dry it is in Texas, and that you can only water once a day. And I thought you were having problems with your mostly-turface mix having dry spots. Not watering an azalea thoroughly?? Any azalea I have ever had NEVER wants to dry out. Or any tree in this 'modern substrate' that is either prone to having dry spots, or is free-draining for that matter. I would, in either case and especially with azaleas, water extra well to insure no dry spots. Even with trees that prefer dryer soil get well watered until it flows from the drains, if nothing more than to get a healthy exchange of air to the roots, brought about by the flow of water down through and out the drains thereby sucking air into the rootzone. I guess this is one of those rare occasions where having experience is invaluable.

 

[discusmike]

I always lift pots after watering to get a feel for things, when I check pots to water I pick them up again, there always a big diffrence in weight, this has worked best for me, also looking at the leaves, I've learned these things the hard way.

 

[Poink88]

Lordy, FYI, this Azalea is where I learned about dry spots in and water resistance of dry turface. As far as I know, when I posted it, most didn't know it happens either. Funny how the newbie was the only one who shared his bad turface experience.

I also realized then that I need to amend my turface substrate more (like I have been doing prior to this Azalea).

 

[Poink88]

I always lift pots after watering to get a feel for things, when I check pots to water I pick them up again, there always a big diffrence in weight, this has worked best for me, also looking at the leaves, I've learned these things the hard way.

he-he-he...difficult to do on a 17 x 21 pot / container.

It is the sad looking leaves that tipped me though...

 

[lordy]

Lordy, FYI, this Azalea is where I learned about dry spots in and water resistance of dry turface. As far as I know, when I posted it, most didn't know it happens either. Funny how the newbie was the only one who shared his bad turface experience.

I also realized then that I need to amend my turface substrate more (like I have been doing prior to this Azalea).

The chopstick in the soil to gauge moisture levels is a trick that I'm sure you have read about here. Not sure why the wilting leaves had to be the tip off that you were not watering enough.
You said "Funny how the newbie was the only one who shared his bad turface experience.
I also realized then that I need to amend my turface substrate more (like I have been doing prior to this Azalea)." I have posted here about what works for me with turface. I will repeat it for you: misting the surface of a pot containing turface as the main component breaks the surface tension so that water poured onto the turface will be absorbed and not run off.
Seems to me that what the newbie did wrong is do what you profess is the right thing to do, not what history shows is the right thing to do. What you need to amend is how you water your trees that are in turface. Your own experience should be telling you loud and clear that how you are doing it is not keeping your trees healthy.

 

[Poink88]

Seems to me that what the newbie did wrong is do what you profess is the right thing to do, not what history shows is the right thing to do. What you need to amend is how you water your trees that are in turface. Your own experience should be telling you loud and clear that how you are doing it is not keeping your trees healthy.

What the newbie have been saying all this time and is never understood or heard is...
1. He sometimes has to go on weekend trips.
2. He cannot have an auto drip system because of local water restriction.
3. He doesn't have a relative who can water for him.
Otherwise, his trees are normally healthy.

Thanks for your concern though.

 

[Dav4]

I used about 95% turface on it and water little because I was warned numerous time not to over water azalea.
QUOTE]

Several...as posted here. http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?8324-Urban-Yamadori-Azalea

That was after collection, that's diffrent.

True, but 6 months later...it is one of the most thirsty plant I have in my yard.

Regardless of the soil substrate being used, newly collected or re-potted trees will be using less water for a while because they have less fine roots to absorb water then before they were collected or re-potted. Trees that have had their canopies cut back as well will use even less...I think Dario's azalea didn't have much foliage on it, but since there aren't any pictures in the thread now, we can only guess. Anyway, these trees need to be monitored closely...use a chopstick, examine the color of the soil an inch below the surface, pick the pot up, whatever...do something on a daily basis, including watering, to make sure the soil substrate is adequately moist but not sodden, which will potentially rot the remaining functional roots. After the tree recovers, it will use normal amounts of water, and for an azalea in GA, VA, or TX, that's going to be a lot.

 

[Robertji]

In Walter's post it says there is very little chance of over watering with Turface and you can water every day. I live in Ontario Canada and in summer we can see sustained 80s but I notice the Turface is still damp. I confess I'm looking for an easy solution to under watering.

So, the proverbial dumb question, can i still water every day??

 

[nathanbs]

In Walter's post it says there is very little chance of over watering with Turface and you can water every day. I live in Ontario Canada and in summer we can see sustained 80s but I notice the Turface is still damp. I confess I'm looking for an easy solution to under watering.

So, the proverbial dumb question, can i still water every day??

i think one of the biggest issues we have with watering instructions is that it is one of the most uneven rules there are. Walters trees are super healthy, they drink a lot, hence needing to be watered daily. When a trees health is less than prime it can be a slippery slope of overwatering even with the fastest draining of soils. You must check your soil for dampness before watering whether it be by lifting the pot, poking with a chopstick, or using a gauge. I would recommend doing this until you truly figure it out. I'm sure people like Walter have figured it out, however i still poke around in my soil everyday on 200 trees.

 

[lordy]

What the newbie have been saying all this time and is never understood or heard is...
1. He sometimes has to go on weekend trips.
2. He cannot have an auto drip system because of local water restriction.
3. He doesn't have a relative who can water for him.
Otherwise, his trees are normally healthy.

Thanks for your concern though.

You need to get friendly with your neighbors. You should be able to show them exactly what to do to keep your trees in tip-top shape.