SOIL WARS episode IV

I kind of skimmed through this talk because it is always interesting to figure out if someone is doing some groundbreaking science, or is kinda of a charlatan.

At 38 minutes there is some interesting discussion about akadama, decomposition of it because of the 10% organic content, release of manganese, which should kinda make it toxic, and effect on manganese. All sounds reasonable.
Using ionized fertilizers, ie inorganic salt-based fertilizer (ammonium nitrate as opposed to organic). Then he starts to talk about the 'carbon' in organic fertilizers. He means organic molecules like sugars, amino acids, humic compounds, etc.
At 46:20, he says the essential thing about this approach is to use 'carbon as a fertilizer', ideally ionic carbon'. Maybe he means an ionic fertilizer, with also small organic molecules, though. But he does seem to say 'ionic carbon'.
But there are no stable ionic forms of carbon. The closest thing would be a carbon radical. Or a carbocation which we use as a concept as the intermediate in a chemical reaction. Or are obtained in a mass spectormeter.
It is not a fertilizer thing.

So it is not clear to me what is is advocating. We use ionic fertilizer with akadama? Or we don't. Because first he says akadama decomposing works because you combine it with an ionic fertilizer. And then he starts to talk about the importance of 'fertilizing carbon'. Then they talk about Biogold being good.

There is some good discussions though. The more arid climate in parts of western US. And then Japan having a monsoon in summer, with tons of water washing out the soil or bonsai substrate.
It starts to get kind of interesting, though.

Maybe the interesting part is literally feeding the plant (so giving them sugars through the roots, rather than producing them in the leaves and taking up NPK mineral fertilizers). So the plant feeds itself with sugars through the roots, using the microbiome, because you apply additional 'carbon-based fertilizer'. But it would require a strong microbiome because I think it is understood that plants by themselves can't take up small organic molecules. Reminds me of the theory that states that huge trees feed their smaller seedling offspring through the roots, through the fungal network.

Maybe the main takeaway is that you can't just us the Japanese method of substate, the Japanese method of fertilizing, and use it in other parts of the world, where the climate is different and the yamadori you use are used to different environments.
 
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On that note, I think I heard them talk about plants having subatomic stomata or something like that... (lol)
 
I am about 20 minutes into it and I find it very interesting discussion.Actually refreshing.
I can attest to what was stated about the genuine excitement to see results that are amazing and very astounding and consistent when I add a growth element or change the way a mineral is taken up by a plant………It really creates a fascination that gives an interest to develope more and more and more.

I like this sort of exploratory sciance……I also agree that what was ststed about soil testing perameters being so related to ( salt or chemical) nutrients…….it does seem slightly a bit to rigid of technology in America ,where in Holland fungicides have been banned on food crips for 20 years???
And they get fuller and better quality and higher yeild and dry weight to the produce and plants being grown…….I was somewhat distraught when I learned this Dutch method and then noticed the big blue powder brands do make the fungicides and pesticides also…….profiting from both………I’ll leave the studied sciance speak for itself for those with an interest in this.

Like the gentlman said…..this may com across as a rebel or protest,but really just an observation by me……….I’m just a bit astounded really.
 
Does anybody know exactly what the carbon source that was referred to is? He said there was a fertilizer that smelled of molasses that was the vehicle for carbon delivery.
 
All that said… I’ll take all this with a grain of salt as well. I remember Mirai’s struggle with the compost tea expert and how that played out after Ryan got so excited about the “new & better”. This actually gives me even more respect for the guy. He’s willing to put his money where his mouth is and do these experiments with his own trees and he’s not been one to tell everyone else to try the “new & better” until it’s proven. Somebody has to be the pioneer and he’s stepping up.
What was the outcome of the compost tea ordeal? I’m dying to know now 😂
 
What was the outcome of the compost tea ordeal? I’m dying to know now 😂
They almost killed all the trees at Mirai… things got really bad really quickly apparently. The soil got quite toxic. IIRC very careful post trauma care involving that Dr Earth’s fertilizer helped get some balance back to the soils in the garden. It’s been a while since I listened to those podcasts so take that all with a grain of salt as well.

I admit I use “Dr. Earth’s Acid Lovers” as part of my fertilizer regimen now 🤷🏻‍♂️
 
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Does anybody know exactly what the carbon source that was referred to is? He said there was a fertilizer that smelled of molasses that was the vehicle for carbon delivery.
If I am correct I think any humic acid substance will supply carbon….whether black humic acid powder or the reddish fulvic acid……….and molassis powders will also…..while boosting iron uptake too.
 
Does anybody know exactly what the carbon source that was referred to is? He said there was a fertilizer that smelled of molasses that was the vehicle for carbon delivery.

This is not my area of expertise at all. So I did a quick search, and it seems we do not understand how plants trade C and N through the roots/soil/rhizosphere. We just found out they do and that it can play a major role.
The challenging thing about it is that you need to use radioactively labeled carbon atoms to keep track of where specific molecules come from and go to.
The interesting part will be to figure out how you can literally feed plants carbon/sugars/amino acids through the soil, through the rules.

Regarding humic acid, I think the most common held belief now is that they are a product of plant matter degradation in the soil by bacteria. And that they are beneficial to plant growth.
But maybe not because the humic acid itself is absorbed.

The interesting part of the Ryan Neil/Bonsai Mirai story is that Ryan tried to use the method he learned in Japan, got good initial growth at the start. But that after a few years, his plants became very susceptible to pests.
Many people have postulated that plants with high sugar content/high brix are almost resistant to pests. So how do you get a plant that both grows fast (assuming you want that), but also always has high brix?
Because apparently, you can have rapid growth but that is very fragile/low in brix. And then you can get into problems, like Bonsai Mirai had. And this soil science guy had some theory about the ratio of manganese vs calcium.
And this soil science guy apparently came to the conclusion that what the Japanese bonsai people were doing was very bad; akadama being a bad soil, the fertilizer regime being way too aggressive, etc.
But that it does apparently work very well in Japan. Which is where the summer monsoon rains as flushing away all the toxicity comes in.
And for soil and plants like pines that like to grow long taproots, the akadama would result in a fine dense root ball, where normal soil would obviously not.
 
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Having seen statement "there is no magic Japanese dirt" and wholeheartedly agreeing am most overjoyed to see any shadow cast over crapadama by such illustrious teacher of Bonsai😍. Can just imagine many crapadama believers generating justification for continued use of this unduly expensive junk🤪😵‍💫.
 
lol. Laughing my * off here. Been saying akadama is not a magical one-stop solution from the moment that I started bonsai, and that I could not find any biological reason why one would have to use it. And now, over a decade later 'big names' come to the table and everyone gets excited.

In the end, we are just growing trees in small pots. It does not have to be complex. Short internodes, leaves and compact growth are all natural adjustments to growing in confined spaces. It really does not have to get too complex.
 
He literally said he knows no other substrate that creates ramification as fine. So yeah, he asked the guy if he should be moving away from it, but that guy doesnt know bonsai soils well and did not really offer an alternative. Nor did Ryan.
 
Yeah, they didn't say at all that one shouldn't use akadama.
Seems more like a combination of Ryan Neil collecting desert yamadori, then putting them in akadama in the middle of a forest environment, so spores of pests and biomicrobes are everywhere in the air, then feeding the microbes in the akadama with a ton of fertilizer. Causing the akadama to break down into soil, releasing a lot of minerals. All the while trying to grow them organically as well.

Where in Japan, they had temperate monsoon species, blasted everything with chemicals all the time until everything except the plants died, were likely in an urban environment where spores of both microbiome and pests were much much rarer.

It could be that if only one of those elements gets changed, the problem he had doesn't happen any longer.
 
He literally said he knows no other substrate that creates ramification as fine. So yeah, he asked the guy if he should be moving away from it, but that guy doesnt know bonsai soils well and did not really offer an alternative. Nor did Ryan.
True. I think if someone is looking for answers and a rule book this is probably the wrong place. I just like that the discussion is happening and as @Potawatomi13 noted, the folks that many look up to as being the “holders of great knowledge” are suggesting that akadama, or even the 1:1:1 mix may not be such a sacred component in bonsai. As one who has been looking for and trying different substrates and has dealt with the “go akadama or go home” folks every time I’ve asked about the suitability of other components, I really appreciate the simple fact that this conversation can start making some top down movement rather than bottom up.
 
Just finished this episode and had the advantage of hearing the prelude a year or so ago from the fast talking other guy.. from Blue Gold?

Here’s my take. I took notes throughout, yet may have dropped a couple points. I can dump these here if anyone wants these.

Anyways Ryan has done a great job getting scientific advice, drilling down with experts to find out what’s actually causing certain growth issues. Something not done before…. testing out treatments not used before on bonsai.

After 18 months the result wasn’t akadama was ‘bad’ for all of his trees. The results were multifaceted, and depended on the species. Yet was more about his lack of holistic horticultural care. Not his fault, due to following what he was taught in his apprenticeship.

Basically the key issue was the media mainly lacked a source of Carbon. Also Magnesium and Aluminum were going out of balance, along with Sodium… causing a cascade of issues. This due mainly from the lack of Carbon and the pH of the water, along with use of various fertilizers and likely, but not focused on, compounding the issue, the use of pesticides and fungicides.

Also there was the lack of recognition that trees are not the same and for example believing a high desert tree required similar horticulture as a Japanese native or a Puget Sound lowland tree.

David K always equivocated everyone Ryan suggestedgetting rid of akadama for the trees from a high pH area. Finally instead suggesting better testing use of certain supplements to the media for ex a mix of 5-10% Ca Phosphate & Clay in a slow eroding pelletized form as a starting point…. which isn’t available yet btw.

All of this information involves cutting edge horticultural practice that folks in the USA are extremely slowly backing up to…and yes I agree with @cmeg1 it would be great to study and apply the science folks in the Netherlands are using to get the astounding consistent results with their crops.

This is a great episode to listen to. I had to play parts many times over to get as many nuances.

Cheers
DSD sends
 
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Just finished this episode and had the advantage of hearing the prelude a year or so ago from the fast talking other guy.. from Blue Gold?

Here’s my take. I took notes throughout, yet may have dropped a couple points. I can dump these here if anyone wants these.

Anyways Ryan has done a great job getting scientific advice, drilling down with experts to find out what’s actually causing certain growth issues. Something not done before…. testing out treatments not used before on bonsai.

After 18 months the result wasn’t akadama was ‘bad’ for all of his trees. The results were multifaceted, and depended on the species. Yet was more about his lack of holistic horticultural care. Not his fault, due to following what he was taught in his apprenticeship.

Basically the key issue was the media mainly lacked a source of Carbon. Also Magnesium and Aluminum were going out of balance, along with Sodium… causing a cascade of issues. This due mainly from the lack of Carbon and the pH of the water, along with use of various fertilizers and likely, but not focused on, compounding the issue, the use of pesticides and fungicides.

Also there was the lack of recognition that trees are not the same and for example believing a high desert tree required similar horticulture as a Japanese native or a Puget Sound lowland tree.

David K always equivocated everyone Ryan suggestedgetting rid of akadama for the trees from a high pH area. Finally instead suggesting better testing use of certain supplements to the media for ex a mix of 5-10% Ca Phosphate & Clay in a slow eroding pelletized form as a starting point…. which isn’t available yet btw.

All of this information involves cutting edge horticultural practice that folks in the USA are extremely slowly backing up to…and yes I agree with @cmeg1 it would be great to study and apply the science folks in the Netherlands are using to get the astounding consistent results with their crops.

This is a great episode to listen to. I had to play parts many times over to get as many nuances.

Cheers
DSD sends
Hahaha, in the Netherlands they use everything over here we are inventing the wheel again. Oeps.....
 
A friend of mine turned me on to videos highlighting methods and even automated factories over there.

They were nothing like my uncles farm, that’s for sure

Cheers
DSD sends
 
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