Soil Wars-Turface

As most mentioned. I too would love to use more pumice if it is locally available. They are fairly cheap but after factoring shipping, it gets expensive.

I use mostly Turface in my mix and only had problems when I used 90%+ of it. I even posted a thread about it being waterproof 9 months ago. When it is 50% or less, my plants seem to be thriving and have no problems.

My mix is changing and I will be adding pumice regularly now (bought several boxes already but not used yet) BUT my mix will remain mostly Turface until I find a better material I can source locally.

For me it boils down to the mix, I really believe Turface will work great with proper amendment. I just hope to find the right combination for my weather and style sooner than later. :D

Dario,

Do you use NAPA Floor Dry and Turface interchangeably? I remember an earlier post of yours about dying Floor Dry. If you mix them what ratio do you use? From what I have read I believe they act almost identically.

For me NAPA Floor Dry is the cheapest, most readily available material where I am located. I did also just order a bunch of crushed lava rock from eBay to compliment the Floor Dry.
 
I don't use turface in most of my mixes as it holds more water then i like and my screen isn't that fine. But i've too bought trees from Julian, mine weren't in 100% turface they were in a turface/bark mix. Maybe 70% turface, the trees i've bought from him have all been extremely well grown and healthy.
 
Dario,

Do you use NAPA Floor Dry and Turface interchangeably? I remember an earlier post of yours about dying Floor Dry. If you mix them what ratio do you use? From what I have read I believe they act almost identically.

For me NAPA Floor Dry is the cheapest, most readily available material where I am located. I did also just order a bunch of crushed lava rock from eBay to compliment the Floor Dry.

No. I use the Floor Dry (DE) as an amendment to Turface. I also plan to add pumice, lava, and bark to it. On some (tropical trees) I will also add shredded sphagnum moss and peat moss as needed. I will also add little amount of charcoal starting next potting.

Right now, I am sourcing locally a good source for course sand to add (just a handful per pot).

My future target mix (in parts) for most of my plants will be:
5 Turface
1 pumice
1 lava
2 Floor dry (DE)
2 bark
1 sphagnum moss, peat moss, compost
.25 course sand/decomposed granite
.1 charcoal

I am sure it will change still.

Please note that I am on a very hot area and I also cannot water more than once a day. I need water retaining mix. I plan on sifting but only using window screen (like 1 mm) again because of my situation. I am sure this mix can/will cause problems elsewhere so please adjust accordingly.

Hope this helps.
 
Thanks but I contacted the owner years ago and she informed me they do not supply here in TX...not enough demand apparently.

I found a Southern States dealer who was willing to special order DryStall for me with a minimum of 5 bags. They waited until their order was fairly large, then tacked my 5 bags onto it. That way shipping for me was not much.
 
I found a Southern States dealer who was willing to special order DryStall for me with a minimum of 5 bags. They waited until their order was fairly large, then tacked my 5 bags onto it. That way shipping for me was not much.

Thanks! I'll check locally if anyone will take that kind of order arrangement. I am willing to wait. :)
 
Dario,

a bit complicated that mix.

Remember I am both hotter and more windy, than you and with low humidity after the middle of January or so until the rain returns around late May to July [ as we had it this year ].

The simple mix used with just marbles and compost, grows a tamarind well. It is a very leafy tree and if it dries out, it drops the leaves.
I use this example because I am sure you are familiar with the Tamarind.

The one situation, that you may or may not have is, that our dry weather occurs when the trees are resting, so after January 2nd, all of the repotting is done. The mix can be richer in compost because of these factors.
By the time the rains return, the trees are potbound.

[1] After repotting, soil is drenched until water drips or runs from the drainage holes.

[2] Plants are place in bright light on the north side of the house. There is little or no wind, though there is obviously movement in the air, by breezes pulling / pushing air across the yard.

[3] Watering is done by observation and is a drenching, to get water to flow again through the drainage holes.

[4] Takes anywhere from a week or so for the trees to dry the surface of the soil.

[5] After a week, plants go back into dappled light or morning sun.

[6] By observation everyone is returned to full sun. All are treated as individuals.
The yard is large enough to do this.

[7] Fertiliser is applied 1 month later, at 1/3 strength into moist soil.

By March- April, watering is one in the evening 4.30 p.m to soften the soil and handle the drying breezes at night. Allows the foliage to be wetted, but dry before 6.00 p.m.
Morning takes two passes to get the drainage holes to drip.

Just watering in the morning to the drench state will work, but everyone loves being with the Bonsai in the evening, as it is cool and pleasant.
Can any of this be factored into your practice and make for an easier situation>
Good Day
Anthony
 
Dario,

a bit complicated that mix.

I know. Believe me, I tried to keep it as simple as possible but learning that there are things I can do/give my trees for them to thrive better. Convenience has a price that I am not willing to pay so I made it more "complicated".

If I have more $$$$, I'd use akadama and/or more pumice. ;)
 
No. I use the Floor Dry (DE) as an amendment to Turface. I also plan to add pumice, lava, and bark to it. On some (tropical trees) I will also add shredded sphagnum moss and peat moss as needed. I will also add little amount of charcoal starting next potting.

Right now, I am sourcing locally a good source for course sand to add (just a handful per pot).

My future target mix (in parts) for most of my plants will be:
5 Turface
1 pumice
1 lava
2 Floor dry (DE)
2 bark
1 sphagnum moss, peat moss, compost
.25 course sand/decomposed granite
.1 charcoal

I am sure it will change still.

Please note that I am on a very hot area and I also cannot water more than once a day. I need water retaining mix. I plan on sifting but only using window screen (like 1 mm) again because of my situation. I am sure this mix can/will cause problems elsewhere so please adjust accordingly.

Hope this helps.

I don't understand why you would add Floor Dry to Turface, they are virtually the same thing: Calcined clay.
 
I don't understand why you would add Floor Dry to Turface, they are virtually the same thing: Calcined clay.

I just looked up the MSDS's to break down the differences on another forum. Turface has 5% crystalline silica whereas Floor Dry (and other DE) has <1%. Since crystalline silica causes silicosis and lung cancer this is a somewhat valid concern.

They both hold their weight in water (100% absorption) and both break down with time so practically, I agree, they seem to be almost identical.
 
I can honestly say that over the past few months of my new venture into bonsai that using a turface mixture ($12 = 50# bag of turface, $10 = 25# bag of peat, and $8 = 25# of chicken grit) is by far the cheapest most efficient way to go about growing quality trees in MY USDA zone. All together I have spent a little over 60$ this year on soils and I have well over 30 trees. That being said, it works for my area, maybe not yours in Cali or Texas or even NY. I know all the experienced guys on here can attest to their own mixture of whatever, but I just read part of the Crataegus rant and he pretty much said if you use Turface, you're an idiot. Agree with him or not, I still think that whatever you use as a substrate should be whatever you can afford/find.

I'm new at this whole bonsai thing, but I have been growing cool-season bentgrass on golf courses in some of the most hottest regions in Virginia and can attest to using the correct growing medium and how it can affect the overall quality of the turf. Basically, we use a 80/20 mix of white sand and peat for under a green, along with proper drainage of course and you have one of the best putting surfaces around.(if you know how to maintain it)

Anyways, as I said before, to each his own.
 
What gets me

What gets me is that here in America, as far as fine plant media, it seems as though there is not squat to chose from. Go to Germany, Dane countries or Europe in general, and there is a plethora of components available--on the Kaizen Bonsai site I count over 20 different products available--here in the US there isn't much. I have never used akadama and being my plants are nearly all natives that I let freeze hard, I am not sure if it would be appropriate but being it is seemly so wonderful it frustrates me there is there no local source for it (unfired compressed volcanic soil nodules). It seems kind of ludicrous and unsustainable to ship it from Japan. Sigh. Double sigh.
 
What gets me is that here in America, as far as fine plant media, it seems as though there is not squat to chose from. Go to Germany, Dane countries or Europe in general, and there is a plethora of components available--on the Kaizen Bonsai site I count over 20 different products available--here in the US there isn't much. I have never used akadama and being my plants are nearly all natives that I let freeze hard, I am not sure if it would be appropriate but being it is seemly so wonderful it frustrates me there is there no local source for it (unfired compressed volcanic soil nodules). It seems kind of ludicrous and unsustainable to ship it from Japan. Sigh. Double sigh.

Again, bonsai is basically in its infancy here, it will/should come...just not sure if it is in our generation. :(

BTW, I've read that akadama is just decomposed pumice. I am sure there is a place here in the US that can mine such product.
 
Again, bonsai is basically in its infancy here, it will/should come...just not sure if it is in our generation. :(

BTW, I've read that akadama is just decomposed pumice. I am sure there is a place here in the US that can mine such product.
Others have noted online there seems to be plenty of "like" deposits of degraded volcanic soils(in fact, I heard there is attempts going on right now near Mt. Saint Helens to mine soils in japanese fashion) but the claim is marketability--no one is doing it because there is a perception there is no money in it. It would be nice if some hobbyist near soils like this would attempt to make some on a personal scale and try to get some professionals to test them--or at least look at them. I got no volcanic soil here.
 
Patrick,

I cannot help but infer that you
  • have no comparative pictures
    • of roots
    • showing general vigor
    • etc.
  • did not conduct a comparative experiement growing JBPs (and/or Ponderosas), some in Turface and some in the better stuff
  • have no measurement data demonstrating the differences

Thanks, anyway.

Excuse me, but what is your motivation behind posting here? Both of your posts focused on attacking my posts, and contributing nothing to the discussion. What value have you added? What are your experiences? Last time I checked, Michael didnt post pictures of his experience. Does that mean his opinion should be attacked and denounced because it wasnt published in a scientific journal? My post focused on my experience with turface and my experimentation away from a 100% turface mix to a 25% turface mix. Quite frankly, your contribution and the recent contribution of similar users disgusts me. Post about your experiences, or have a civil discussion with me about what I observed, but whats the point of hounding/demanding to see lab results? It's a joke, man. I am a hobbyist, I am not conducting major soil science experiments in my backyard. I have empirical evidence from growing about 150 pines of various ages over the last 4-5 years, and that is all. Feel free to continue this discussion with me via PM, but I dont intend to clutter this thread with more bickering.

Patrick
 
Others have noted online there seems to be plenty of "like" deposits of degraded volcanic soils(in fact, I heard there is attempts going on right now near Mt. Saint Helens to mine soils in japanese fashion) but the claim is marketability--no one is doing it because there is a perception there is no money in it. It would be nice if some hobbyist near soils like this would attempt to make some on a personal scale and try to get some professionals to test them--or at least look at them. I got no volcanic soil here.

I don't doubt that. I should correct my post to read:
"I am sure there are places here in the US that can mine such product."

Backyard operation might work but to go big time...you have to deal with; environmental issues, permits, zoning, etc. You shouldn't wonder why no one is taking the dive (yet).
 
So is anyone else interested in attempting a small, controlled study of turface vs non turface soils? If so, either post here or send me a PM and we'll coordinate our methods so we can get the bests results possible. If there's enough interest we can start a separate thread about it.

Thanks.

Chris
 
I don't doubt that. I should correct my post to read:
"I am sure there are places here in the US that can mine such product."

Backyard operation might work but to go big time...you have to deal with; environmental issues, permits, zoning, etc. You shouldn't wonder why no one is taking the dive (yet).

Ahh, but little backyard production, followed by reviews by esteemed akadama users, could confirm it could be worth going for. Who knows, maybe Japan has the only compressed volcanic soil nodules that grows plants superbly. Hey, maybe the reason the Japanese have come to be a world leader with potted dwarfen trees is their back yard dirt.
 
For those of you in States where pumice is difficult to find. I would suggest figuring out a way to have it shipped in Bulk or coming to visit CA and bring a big truck load full back. Here's a couple places you can purchase it for about $50-100 a truck load. Bag it up and sell it to your friends.

Here's where I get mine, you have to wash it because it's really dusty. San Luis Obispo, CA:
http://airvolblock.com/cm/General/Bulk_Products.html

CA Bay Area:
http://www.americansoil.com/sand_gravel.html


To help improve Bonsai in the US I believe we have to start thinking of multi generation Trees, which is part of the reason I believe using a volcanic soil is so important. Japan is so far ahead of us because they are working on material and knowledge which was built upon for generations now. While I hope I still have time to do Bonsai, I’d like to pass my trees onto future generations. Not sure if everyone caught the responses on Michaels blog, however I believe he addresses some of the responses on this thread, brings up some important points which are not considered in the US often enough and he is very good at communicating through writing.


Quotes from Michael:
"Yes, some organics like coir and bark can produce good roots, but seemingly only over the shorter term. We want roots that if need be can be left in contact with their soil particles sometimes for decades. In the interior of the soil mass in Japan sometimes things are not touched for a very long time, if things are happy there. And they only seem to remain happy if in a volcanic mix. The exterior is changed, the interior is only worked on periodically and never as severely as in the west because there is no need to.

There is a lot to learn, but we’ve been trying to reinvent the wheel over here in places where it’s not wise to do so. Much of horticultural soil science assumes replacement in several years time. In bonsai, this is simply not the case. Sometimes in the interior of the mass we want it to remain there for much longer. And that’s the whole problem with western assumptions of repotting: Changing out the soil mix. With organics you have to because they break down into something that gets worse and worse over time."

About Dry Stall
"Yes, Dry-stall is pumice. It is useful for bonsai soil, not bad, but the sizes are a bit small. So for smaller pots this product is ok. The other thing is that it seems crushed, and therefore it has less pore space than the pumice taken up buy shovelful in the Cascades which is rounder. But Dry-stall is usable."

"Hydration is a problem with Turface, Oil-Dri and Profile; they all have strange water holding properties and can become oddly water repellant on top on a hot, dry summer’s day, impeding water penetration. So it works both ways and is a very dangerous situation.

What I’ve seen between different soil particles is that Turface does not create a good root system, and pumice, lava, and perlite are far better for fine root growth and allow more uniform water penetration. We can argue about it all day and for what reasons, but the fact is it is not as good as other particles. Yes, you can find a way to use nearly anything. I’m just saying Turface has the narrowest parameters of healthy root growth of anything I’ve seen. Even under the best of husbandry trees grown in Turface have fewer fine roots than other soils. I don’t see a reason for using it when there are better options."
 
To help improve Bonsai in the US I believe we have to start thinking of multi generation Trees, which is part of the reason I believe using a volcanic soil is so important. Japan is so far ahead of us because they are working on material and knowledge which was built upon for generations now. While I hope I still have time to do Bonsai, I’d like to pass my trees onto future generations. Not sure if everyone caught the responses on Michaels blog, however I believe he addresses some of the responses on this thread, brings up some important points which are not considered in the US often enough and he is very good at communicating through writing.


Quotes from Michael:
The exterior is changed, the interior is only worked on periodically and never as severely as in the west because there is no need to.

Yenling -

Thanks for quoting Michael on this. It's an interesting perspective that I've been thinking about for some time. Far too often short term results are relied on too much without considering what the long term impacts are with the actions we take. This is why I tend to rely on the information coming from the more experienced folks... they know how soil (and other bonsai practices for that matter) will impact a tree after 3, 5, 10 years. I also appreciate that Michael qualified his comments, indicating that he's simply advocating for what is best, recognizing that sometimes 'best' is not always possible.
 
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