Soil Wars-Turface

[coh]

Al,

First off, thanks for taking the time to post that information. I know you've posted that photo of your soil components before, but it is helpful to have it here.

I have been after my local hydroponics shop to get in some growstone soil aerator since you first posted about it. For one reason or another they haven't come through. For a while they were telling me the company was overwhelmed with orders and way behind, now I don't know what the excuse is. I will keep trying as I'd love to try the stuff.

In one of your recent posts you wrote (in part):

Like everything in life, there will always be haves and have nots. The havenots in flyover states that do bonsai as more than a hobby are spending what it takes to have better trees. Those that do not will make do.

But the point I'm trying to make is that some of those who are "making do" are doing a pretty darn good job at it. I gave the Julian Adams reference, John G has said he uses turface and there are many others. Some use it because they don't have ready access to other materials, others because they don't believe it is necessary to pay the additional cost to get those materials. So my interest in the discussion is/was to (1) point out that turface by itself is not "evil" and that there are many people using it successfully, (2) figure out how to best use turface, given its limitations (mainly size) if that is what one chooses, and (3) evaluate the differences between growing in turface and other materials (lava, pumice)...which goes along with another comment you made in a previous post:

If you have never seen the effects of good soil before, this is all moot and means nothing to you.

So I'm interested in testing some of the mixes to decide for myself, under my conditions, if it's worth trying to find a source for reasonably priced "west coast" soil components like pumice. This seems like something you implicitly are in favor of (based on the above quote), yet you took a swipe at it in another post (Some think that more testing within the community is the answer rather than just listen to experience and try that for a change)

I can't speak for others on here, but I (for one) am listening to those of you with experience, but the way I do things is to take the information available, and test it under my conditions before jumping completely on the train.

Anyway, maybe that helps you see where I'm coming from.

Chris

 

[JudyB]

Al, I understand all the points about the particle size, and am moving all the way into larger particle mix next season.
I have a question for you, about how the drainage layer idea would fit into this system. If it does compact the lowest part of the pot, then what good would the drainage layer actually do? Seems like it would be opposite of what you'd want. And yet I know that a lot of knowledgeable people use a drainage layer.
Thanks for all the information, I know it's difficult to keep saying all of it over and over, but it's a help to some who have not seen it before, and a reminder for the rest of us.

 

[Sekibonsai]

I just looked up the MSDS's to break down the differences on another forum. Turface has 5% crystalline silica whereas Floor Dry (and other DE) has <1%. Since crystalline silica causes silicosis and lung cancer this is a somewhat valid concern.

They both hold their weight in water (100% absorption) and both break down with time so practically, I agree, they seem to be almost identical.

No silicosis is not a valid concern. Silicosis is the result of chronic environmental exposure or occupational exposure. If you generate extremely significant dust clouds and stand in it all day, doing this every day, at 5% you might get health problems.

I'm thinking Natural Selection should have already taken care of anyone that would do this.

 

[Sekibonsai]

And yeah Dario, you ARE making your life difficult. I'd reduce your ingredients to three- inorganic substrate (I.e., akadama, Turface whatever...), an organic substrate (pine or orchid bark) and a sharp sand (#2 well digger's sand or blasting sand if you can find it.) And get yourself a cheap automated drip irrigation system dude! I'm a dealer for Dripworks so if you want me to help let me know.

 

[Smoke]

Al,


So I'm interested in testing some of the mixes to decide for myself, under my conditions, if it's worth trying to find a source for reasonably priced "west coast" soil components like pumice. This seems like something you implicitly are in favor of (based on the above quote), yet you took a swipe at it in another post (Some think that more testing within the community is the answer rather than just listen to experience and try that for a change)

Anyway, maybe that helps you see where I'm coming from.

Chris

I took a swipe at the testing of the material to hold moisture. That is a huge variable and something that the average or even below average hobbiest has total and complete control over. Testing that is sort of moot because if it dries faster then water more.

What many of you do not have any control over is the availability of particle size. THAT is what no one is testing about. You want to test something, then test particle size and the effects of more air on a plant. If anyone thinks air is not important to the health of a bonsai, then they have never grown a piece of material in a pond basket. Grow one piece with larger particles in a basket and you will throw the turface the same place I did.

500 pounds right on the ground where I keep my trash cans and firewood.

 

[Smoke]

I am not adding pumice to my mix to hold more moisture, I add pumice to my mix because I can get a larger particle size at half the weight....rather than adding things like granite grit which is heavy. Adding a larger particle at the expense of the weight of the pot should be given due diligence. That is why I recommend growstones or no. 2 orchid bark.

All we are looking for is air exchange with a larger particle, what we use is immaterial. Testing moisture retainability is a waste of time, it just doesn't mean that much in the big picture. Just water more. I can tell you from decades of experience that nothing will hold moisture like akadama. Not even turface. Turface holds water because it is small and has too much surface tension to be useful.

Judy, a draiange layer is added to a shallow pot when the water cannot escape the pot due to surface tension. The water will stick together because there is not suffecient weight of the water to expell it from the pot....no swoosh. A larger layer at the bottom helps break the surface tension and allow the water to trickle from the pot. Perched water tables with even 1/4 particles are nothing to worry about. There is no such thing as rotten roots when the particle size is suffecient in size. Perched water in an anerobic (turface) environment is curtains.

 

[Shima]

You want to test something, then test particle size and the effects of more air on a plant. If anyone thinks air is not important to the health of a bonsai, then they have never grown a piece of material in a pond basket. Grow one piece with larger particles in a basket and you will throw the turface the same place I did.

.

And this is why sand is not a great idea.

 

[lordy]

I took a swipe at the testing of the material to hold moisture. That is a huge variable and something that the average or even below average hobbiest has total and complete control over. Testing that is sort of moot because if it dries faster then water more.

What many of you do not have any control over is the availability of particle size. THAT is what no one is testing about. You want to test something, then test particle size and the effects of more air on a plant. If anyone thinks air is not important to the health of a bonsai, then they have never grown a piece of material in a pond basket. Grow one piece with larger particles in a basket and you will throw the turface the same place I did.

500 pounds right on the ground where I keep my trash cans and firewood.

the pics of the pond basket show Huge root growth! But it also looks like a pretty variable particle size in the mix, much of which does not look like growstone. I also wonder why no major breaking news coming from Japan about mega particle size? Not saying I doubt this, but it does seem relatively new (Feb 2012?). I bought growstone last year. The majority of it is a good bit larger than what I am used to. I elected not to use it as too large, based on conventional wisdom, and now all of a sudden I goofed?

 

[Shima]

Soil wars

Evidently you bought the large size. It comes in 3 sizes as I said on page 3 of this thread:
a. Small particle size for propagation mixes – average particle size of 2 mm.

b. Medium particle size for soil enhancement – between 1/16″- 7/16” (5 to 12 mm).

c. Large particle size for most hydroponic systems – between 1/2″- 1″ (12 to 25 mm).

 

[Smoke]

the pics of the pond basket show Huge root growth! But it also looks like a pretty variable particle size in the mix, much of which does not look like growstone. I also wonder why no major breaking news coming from Japan about mega particle size? Not saying I doubt this, but it does seem relatively new (Feb 2012?). I bought growstone last year. The majority of it is a good bit larger than what I am used to. I elected not to use it as too large, based on conventional wisdom, and now all of a sudden I goofed?

The basket was filled with lava only straight from the pile. It is a grow out tree and in training. I have no reason to size this soil. You can see from the photos that the particles are larger than the 1/4 inch slits in the basket, while also observing the openess of the soil thru the slits.

I do not buy growstone nor do I need to use it. I have many more available materials to use that are better and cheaper. I suggest it because I feel it may more readily available to those that do not have lava type materials in their state period.

Japan has been using open akadama, pumice, lava type soils for 75 years or more. This is nothing new in Japan. They don't know anything any different and I'll be willing to bet trurface is not the choice of professional bonsai growers in Japan.

When Kenji Miyata moved to the West coast about five years ago and did some workshops for the bonsai societies here, the first thing he said was, "why your soil so small?"

http://bonsaijournal.com/life-at-a-bonsai-nursery.php

http://www.bonsaisocietyofupstateny.org/photo gallery/2011/042611_miyata/miyata_index.htm

 

[0soyoung]

Roots in Turface MVP

An amur maple in a cubic ceramic pot

The sawed off root mass after washing out the Turface MVP

 

[0soyoung]

Roots in Turface

Overwintered green acer palmatum air layered in Turface with pot removed (roots completely populated the medium in ca 9 mo)
After having combed out the Turface

 

[coh]

Overwintered green acer palmatum air layered in Turface with pot removed (roots completely populated the medium in ca 9 mo) View attachment 45041
After having combed out the Turface View attachment 45042

Roots look pretty good (is that straight turface or a mixture of some type?). Thanks for posting!

Chris

 

[Smoke]

Thats what I would use.

 

[0soyoung]

Roots look pretty good (is that straight turface or a mixture of some type?). Thanks for posting!

Chris

Other than a dab of sphagnum on the holes at the bottom of the pot to keep the Turface from falling out, nothing but.

 

[mcpesq817]

Osoyoung, those are the results I get with deciduous materials in pure turface. Pretty amazing growth.

I won't use organic cakes with turface as I think that is what causes the dry spots. Turface gets very crusty fast with organic cakes. I also leave the turface to deciduous trees, and use pumice and lava, grit and sometimes haydite for conifers.

 

[63pmp]

Anthony said

I don't think there is a soil mix problem, I think there is -

[1] Standard beginner watering problem.

[2] Standard, removal of too much root, collected or nursery plant problem. Add on not enough time for plant recovery and the frustration that follows.

[3] Little or no Biology.

[4] Convenience of growing/watering Bonsai which ties back into [1].

As I understand it, you are very experienced in soil matters, possibly have a degree as well, and yet the exploration of materials continues by the participants on this topic.
The magical clay/pumice mix known as Akadama, the turface MVP, and whatever.
Some time back there was a photographic entry by Robert Stevens showing how easily they grow stuff with volcanic sand.[ what about red lava - I have from Amazon ]

No one is paying attention ------------ because this is what beginners do ---------- it is a necessary part of the Horticultural aspect of Bonsai.

So perhaps we -idiots - should stay out of this topic - let them fight it out.

It is what is done down here.
Good Day
Anthony

*Still using the same ingredients since the early 1980's
It helps to have grown pigeon peas, corn and pumpkin when growing up as a boy in Trinidad.


Hi Anthony,

I not sure how it works, I often see people posting the same misinformation on the forums, even after long arguments and explanations. I'm sure there are people here that learn from these posts. And if only one person takes something away from it then it's worthwhile.

I think another problem is that well known "experts" say that horticulture is only 10% of bonsai (I notice these people live in regions of the world that is very favorable for growing plants in pots, or the horticulture was worked out 100 years ago). So beginners think this should be easy, but if you live outside of these favorable places, then your % horticulture is going to expand, and this is scary for a non sciency/biology type people. I've had people tell me that "it's just a tree in a pot, it can't be too hard", and then almost in the next breath say they can't grow azalea. WTF? Well sometimes it is hard, sometimes you don't have the perfect components and so you have to learn something out of the comfort zone. Components will work in one place and not in another, I think this should be recognized.

Unless experience people post then these forums will just become a joke. I've experienced bonsai forums where it is predominantly beginners telling other beginners how to do stuff. It's a bit like Dario regurgitating something he has read using his "I'm an authority" voice, without actually having any experience behind the comment; only every other poster on the forum is the same. So experienced people do need to stick their heads up occasionally, it gives some validity to the place.

On another topic, I find it interesting that you can use so much compost in your mixes. I've thought about this for a while, and it came to me the other month as I was looking at nitrogen fixation rates. Tropical trees are nitrate specialists, and in the tropics N literally falls from the sky; and tropical plants are also mycrrhozal (sp) specialists; they specialize in taking up nutrients from the composting leaf litter on the forest floor, taking up very little from the clay beneath. So with your potting mixes you are imitating what happens naturally, the fungi turn the organic compost into granules of humic material and everything grows well. This process will not work so well in colder climates, where natural process you take for granted, don't work so fast, or at all. Please give me your thoughts on this.

Cascade said

Soil is always a compromise. There is no perfect soil as there are no perfect conditions.

This is so true. Though, I think, people need to have confidence in the potting mix they are using, so that if the plant is not growing well they can say, "so it's not the mix, it must be . . . "

JudyB said

I have a question for you, about how the drainage layer idea would fit into this system.

Drainage layer is another red flag topic, worse then soil mix topics.

I don't call them drainage layers, because in reality, it does nothing for drainage.

What they should be called is aeration layers, because what it does is allow air to penetrate along the entire length and breadth of the bottom of the root ball. I put an aeration layer in every one of my pots, I'm sure other people don't, and they probably have no problems with there plants. So its up to you if you want to or not. Personally, I think it works.

Paul


Paul

 

[Anthony]

Paul,

back in 1980, Khaimraj got a hold of a handbook that had mention of many of those soil ingredients being discussed here. He just adapted our ingredients from what he read about.
Our fired clay is porous and earthenware. Fired to 980 - 1050 deg.C
Our builder's sharp sand is a silica that is bonded together, not a decomposed glass.Probably similar to the dyed agates that come out of India and China, masquerading as Carnelians.

He followed the organic information from articles in Rodale, and grew vegetables.

All he did was just adapt the information to use in Bonsai. Nothing more.

Please note also grown are J.B.P, Trident Maple, Gingko, Celtis and quite a few of the standard sub-tropicals from China.
The trident after 16 to 17 years passed away because, he didn't know that the soil needed to be more on the dry side. The trunk had grown from a whip to almost 3" and it did that in under three years.
Winter is simulated by using a refrigerator.

If a drier soil is needed, all you do is hold back on the compost and brick.
Watering is by hand, rarely with a hose and rose.

Particle size was always controlled by simply sifting.

During the 33 years I have watched Khaimraj grow trees, and he works with native trees, that there is no published information on, he has lost very, very few.

His notebooks, have breakdowns on various composted oil meal cakes, animal manure and so on. Just a lot of reading and adapted use of information.

This last decade research has been more into the production of fine branchlets. Growing has been mostly from seed and cuttings, since the collected tree bit would encourage others to rape the countryside. Seedings if collected are from public drains.

As you can see there is no rocket science, just reading and applying information.

He did the same for the three years he lived in Florence, Italy and the two years in Pennsylvania.
At that time it was more along the lines of Zelkova, Cedar of Lebanon, Camellias and Pomegranates, outdoors, in snow.
Indoors it was the standard Fukien tea, Sageretia and so on.
Same type of soil mix. Just adapted ingredients.

I am totally confused with these lengthy discussions.

As far as I know it Turface MVP, is only fired to basic sintering as clay goes. 650 deg.C and will decompose, as many of the earthenware pots, fired in holes in the earth, using tires or scrap wood as the heat source.
It will get worse if the Turface source is not an earthenware clay, but a stoneware clay.
So if batches are sometimes earthenware, the bonding will be stronger than if the batch is stoneware.

With regards to forest dynamics, the Chinese Southern Elms are supposed to come from riverside zones, with layers of forest leaves, which would keep the roots warm all winter long.
So they can like the Murraya p. adapt easily to our climate, which is mild and not terribly humid, unless it rains for 2 or 3 days in June or July or August.

Apologies, all of this and very little on compost, but to say, it is carefully blended, sifted, aged to have no recognizable particles, for about a year.
Read as left in a 1/2 us 55 gallon barrel, with holes and covered.

The limits for growing Temperates is if they can withstand 30 deg.c in full sun. BUT then you have to like the tree type. Testing Red Pine, White pine presently.

We both however have the standard British 5 years of Biology, Chemistry, Physics, Geography, and also Advanced level of 2 years. So we can read and understand easily. Perhaps that is making all of the difference.

Anyhow, the same three ingredients are use over and over in just different proportions.
In the past, peat moss, and cocopeat was used alongside with compost, because it was observed, that the compost would decay the peats with a few months and work like compost.
Just in case I forgot to mention it, at repotting time, the soil mix is recycled and the compost is seen to pill. Forming granules at up to 5mm. NOT clogging the drainage holes.
Good Day
Anthony

*Dario's situation, is he comes from a country like Trinidad, you have to learn to adapt and convenience which is more prevalent in North America, does not exist.
He is proud of his abilities and the others are having a hard time with it.
He has no problems failing and will try, try, and try again.

Khaimraj and I, built a small house of 8 x 5 m, 2 levels and with a concrete roof, that allows you to walk out and enjoy the view since the walls on the roof are at navel level.
[ Adapted Greek Style and the support it stands on is engineer designed construction, school friend who became engineers, helped with the design. ]
With a second of 4 x 5 m alongside, 2 levels and a ferrocement dome to come on top.
Wood work with hand tools.

In doing this, both of us, stopped taking folk seriously who paid for a house, and had a crew build it.
As I believe the Danish say it ---- You are a man when you build your own house.

So I have no problems with Dario, but he is going to irritate the dickens out of the North Americans and their pre-packaged world.

 

[63pmp]

I read this and I am in awe of what you and Khaimraj achieve.

I also read and apply, sometimes what is written is rubbish, sometimes gold, even in well written, researched and published material. All of which takes time to test and adapt, 30 years you say Khaimraj has been at it. That's a long time to get it sorted.

You are right. its not rocket science, but if you don't have a mind that is inventive and creative then you won't see the possibilities that surrounds you. Living in Trinidad would be the kind of place where people innovate all the time. Australia used to be like that, and to some extent still is. Lately, it seems to me. the pressures of the life we make for ourselves limits the desire, or time (dare I say it) to do that creative thinking, some just don't have it in there nature. This leads people to look for the easy way out, of asking people on the forums. That's not the same as doing and making mistakes and learning from them. Hmmm, things to ponder.

Perhaps it is living in Trinidad, maybe Khaimraj is a genius, either way, I am impressed with the way you do bonsai on your island.

Thanks for your reply, more to think about there.

Paul

 

[youngsai]

I'm going to get some seedlings and test turface based soil vs non-turface based soil. I only have space and time for a small batch (maybe 10 plants)...anyone else interested in doing something similar? The more samples we have, the more useful/reliable our results would be.

Chris

I waded through this thread filled with ummm, soil, and you definitely have the most useful information on this... what better to do then see for yourself what works best in your own region, and grow some plants in the process!!!

We should do 5 deciduous 5 conifer?

Are you going to start another thread on this experiment?