Cadillactaste
Neagari Gal
Don't you know it! Love out of the box thinking!
For BVF and Rockm...a tree without potential?
- Thread starter Poink88
- Start date
Don Blackmond
Omono
View attachment 69561 View attachment 69555 From the front it looks amazing. I have never been told that the "back" was to look as good as the front!?! I posted this for others to learn possibly a new method to create a taper. It's shown success and I think is a great out of the box thought process. I feel others can learn from this method and use it. I know others already are using it...with hopefully the success Dario had.
Personally I don't see where the back looking as bad as you see it Al... But, again...it is the back.
(Al...Dario doesn't come to the forum any longer this was my post.)
View attachment 69555
Help me out here. What am I looking at? The tree with leaves in the tub is the same as the tree with the bolt, only its a photo taken later in time? If so, what is the aha moment here? I think I'm missing the point of this.
Cadillactaste
Neagari Gal
It went from a stump with absolutely "no" taper...to having a taper. The large bolt is now removed and it if you didn't know the bolt process was done. No one would peg it as the same tree.
Nybonsai12
Masterpiece
My thoughts too. I'm missing it. I see the bolt, I see where it didn't really heal over and join. It was supposed to heal over and join right? Was it never supposed to heal and instead just be a dead wood crack in the middle but bent inward to give the appearance of taper? I applaud the effort for trying something different but I'm missing what the great success here.
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Don Blackmond
Omono
Is there a current photo of the back? Am looking at it and don't know? Did it heal over? I still don't think I'm getting the picture.
Cadillactaste
Neagari Gal
I guess I haven't seen the back with the bolt removed. Just the front...seen a few folk do similar techniques recently and am excited for them...as well as to see their progression.
(So I know others are seeing the possibilities as well, thus thought to share the success of the method here.)I guess...I could ask for a more current photo of the back without the bolt. I must say...you've peeked my curiosity as well now Don.
Don Blackmond
Omono
ok. I thought I was missing something.
Dario's experiment with this technique is interesting. I'm curious what goal he had in mind when he started and how he is progressing toward that goal. Seeing what happened to the back and sides is what matters in that case.
If taper was the goal, then why not just grow out an apex lead and carve taper? Its a cedar elm so it will heal completely. And if we are only looking at the front then cutting and carving would certainly create better taper.
I read that Dario left this forum. Why? He should come back. He made lots of interesting points and was a positive member.
Dario's experiment with this technique is interesting. I'm curious what goal he had in mind when he started and how he is progressing toward that goal. Seeing what happened to the back and sides is what matters in that case.
If taper was the goal, then why not just grow out an apex lead and carve taper? Its a cedar elm so it will heal completely. And if we are only looking at the front then cutting and carving would certainly create better taper.
I read that Dario left this forum. Why? He should come back. He made lots of interesting points and was a positive member.
Cadillactaste
Neagari Gal
Not sure his intentions actually. Just my "wet behind the ears" novice thinking that I notice the taper. Maybe his intentions were something else...no clue. Just liked what I seen...as did others since a few have tried this technique.
Indeed...he did leave the forum...as to why? Maybe tired of the same old...same old, and getting burnt out by it...I know I sort of put some space between myself and the forum for a bit as well for that reason. So I didn't notice he had left quite frankly. I mentioned a post when I started to came back and he commented he wouldn't know he doesn't visit the forum any longer.
I agree...he has brought a lot of interesting points to the forum,as well as being positive...I'm glad I still can pick his brain and such on Facebook through a few bonsai group there.
Indeed...he did leave the forum...as to why? Maybe tired of the same old...same old, and getting burnt out by it...I know I sort of put some space between myself and the forum for a bit as well for that reason. So I didn't notice he had left quite frankly. I mentioned a post when I started to came back and he commented he wouldn't know he doesn't visit the forum any longer.
I agree...he has brought a lot of interesting points to the forum,as well as being positive...I'm glad I still can pick his brain and such on Facebook through a few bonsai group there.
Eric Group
Masterpiece
I still don't see a real believable tree here, but the progress is substantial for such a short time period... A decade from now, he might have a Bonsai!... Or a chopped up looking mess of a "Frankentree"! Who knows...
Smoke
Ignore-Amus
The original tree had a large "vee" cut out of the top of the tree. It was drawn together with the all-thread and washers and nuts. The opening while coming together pretty damn good was never going to graft and was never going to stay together with the force needed to draw up that much wood.
"The Back" is shown in read outline.
"The Back" is shown in read outline.
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Smoke
Ignore-Amus
The out of the box thinking failed and did not ever produce the desired results. Obvoiusly it has been removed from the tree.
"The back" is now the part in red missing from the tree. What is left I suspect is a large nasty wound of raw wood that has dried out, split and will have to be integrated into the tree somehow.
"The back" is now the part in red missing from the tree. What is left I suspect is a large nasty wound of raw wood that has dried out, split and will have to be integrated into the tree somehow.
Smoke
Ignore-Amus
Any time one cuts a round stump on the bias, the uncut side will show taper due to the roundness of the stock. This is a two dimensional view and is not very convincing with a 360 degree medium like bonsai. Yes, bonsai should also have as much attention paid to the back as to the front.
Smoke
Ignore-Amus
If the tree is rotated slightly to one side the taper can become even more dramatic. Keep in mind this is still a two dimensional view. This is about the view we see in Dario's tree.
If the tree is rotated a little farther, the cut can be seen now. It ruins the percieved taper because the cut has been revealed. Think about cutting a thin baguette on the bias to make the bread seem larger, as you lay them out to recieve the olive oil and cheese, it is obvious that the ends have taper.
Now the tree is rotated 180 degrees and we get to see the huge scar left by the large cut done on the bias to achieve taper from a one side two dimensional view. Horticulturaly speaking, too much of the trunk has now been left open to the air. It begins to dry out and will shrink and crack and will never heal over. Nothing left to do but try and carve a deadwood feature from it, but all the while knowing that the tree can never be seen from the side or everyone will know what a hack job was done to the tree. Now the bruschetta is revealed.
Now, if anyone here thinks this is out of the box thinking and a success, you still need to work on your bonsai skills.
If the tree is rotated a little farther, the cut can be seen now. It ruins the percieved taper because the cut has been revealed. Think about cutting a thin baguette on the bias to make the bread seem larger, as you lay them out to recieve the olive oil and cheese, it is obvious that the ends have taper.
Now the tree is rotated 180 degrees and we get to see the huge scar left by the large cut done on the bias to achieve taper from a one side two dimensional view. Horticulturaly speaking, too much of the trunk has now been left open to the air. It begins to dry out and will shrink and crack and will never heal over. Nothing left to do but try and carve a deadwood feature from it, but all the while knowing that the tree can never be seen from the side or everyone will know what a hack job was done to the tree. Now the bruschetta is revealed.
Now, if anyone here thinks this is out of the box thinking and a success, you still need to work on your bonsai skills.
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0soyoung
Imperial Masterpiece
It is definitely not 'out of the box' thinking. However, a bonsai has a front and needn't be perfect from all sides to be magnificent. I particularly admire Vaughn Banting's flat topped bald cypress. I am pretty sure from my viewing at the Pacific Bonsai Museum that it's back side is hollowed out - shocking, but the tree is (nearly taperless and) magnificent nontheless.
Many admire gnarly old trees with hollowed out trunks. Will Baddeley and Kevin Willson make a living substantially by doing this kind of carving. Why is this okay or even praised and what Poink did not? --> discuss.
Smoke
Ignore-Amus
I agree, but we havn't seen the "other side", when I do I'll comment. The people you mention make it a point to highlight the part they carve rather than hide it. You are right that they are famous for the carving they do, and that is because we have been treated to the carving.
daygan
Chumono
Al, you're looking at it all wrong. The section that you claim was removed ("part in red missing from the tree") was not removed at all. The image in which you have outlined the theoretical "missing part" is the opposite side of the tree - i.e. the front. Here, let me clarify with pictures:
FRONT:
BACK:
To further clarify, I've labeled the branches in both pictures so that you can understand how the tree has been rotated. The section that was carved and clamped is outlined in white.
fraser67
Shohin
There are a couple more shots on FB...evidently the tree was repotted a month ago and is doing well. The bolt has been removed and, although there is more to go...it appears as though Dario's "out of the box" thinking has worked. I've read this has been tried before with success. I'll try to locate the article...
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
Dario's methods are just way too gangster for folks to understand!
Fact is. Bjorn said all (or most) of the trees in Japan have a "bald spot" in the back. Bald of foilage, where this may be bald of bark. Same fake.
The pic of before the work is lame.
The pic after the work holds more interest.
That is a success!
Take away that it's Dario, take away the work photos, just leave the before and after, and it is amazing!
Or you are blind.
Blindly hating on Dario for having the balls to put himself and the work out there. Regardless of outcome.
Keep stagnating !
Sorce
Fact is. Bjorn said all (or most) of the trees in Japan have a "bald spot" in the back. Bald of foilage, where this may be bald of bark. Same fake.
The pic of before the work is lame.
The pic after the work holds more interest.
That is a success!
Take away that it's Dario, take away the work photos, just leave the before and after, and it is amazing!
Or you are blind.
Blindly hating on Dario for having the balls to put himself and the work out there. Regardless of outcome.
Keep stagnating !
Sorce
Cadillactaste
Neagari Gal
Al, personally...your example in my minds eye...would create a far worse backside losing more bark. Than Dario's method he used. His kept more bark on the tree allowing for in my opinion a more convincing overall look. Which is why I chose to share the pictures for others to grasp a new possible method.
Many have different techniques for air layering,or even grafting...yet end results are basically the same. Soooo why is there no room for other methods...to create a taper?
Thanks Daygan for the diagrams of the photos I attached. You "grasped" what I seen...much appriciated your time in doing that.
Many have different techniques for air layering,or even grafting...yet end results are basically the same. Soooo why is there no room for other methods...to create a taper?
Thanks Daygan for the diagrams of the photos I attached. You "grasped" what I seen...much appriciated your time in doing that.
Attachments
Don Blackmond
Omono
Hold on a second there sorce. I'm not hating on Dario whatsoever. In fact, the artist has nothing to do with my questions. Someone posted an "update" but it appears the only current photo is the front. That shows us very little about the work and, in fact, tells us nothing about how well the technique worked. So I ask some questions for clarification. Now you say I'm blind and hating on Dario. I sure hope you are trying to be funny or sarcastic with your post.
Looking only at the front, you will never know whether the artist clamped the back to the front or carved off the back. Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought this was about the technique employed to make the tree and not about how to make the best front. If it was the latter, then grow a leader, pump it up, and carve taper in the back.
Give me a hundred cedar elm stumps like this and I'll make some great trees. I probably won't do what Dario did but that does not make him wrong or me right, or vice versa. Cedar elms grow like crazy, and I'm confident that I can take a stump like this, create taper by sawing and carving and heal it over completely. I'm also confident that doing so will never make a believable tree, but it will make an awesome bonsai. I love sumo bonsai; they just don't look like trees, but that's 100% ok with me.
If the premise of this thread is simply: is this a tree without potential? The answer is: No. It should not surprise people (interested in bonsai enough to participate in a forum like this) that this is how many bonsai are started.
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