For BVF and Rockm...a tree without potential?

Oh, come on - post a photo of the other side! You've come this far, let's see how it looks. It would be educational for all of us. I know Dario says it looks "great" from the other side, what does that really mean...

Chris
 
"I think the same could be said of the posts Dario made while he was here that rubbed people the wrong way. He would post things that Basically just were intended to mean "I am trying to find a new way to do something", but the way he worded it, people took his comments to mean something more like "I am brand new at this and I already came up with a better way to do things than all you dummies who have been doing it for 20-30+ years... Because I am so smart I can thumb my nose at CENTURIES of Bonsai practice, remake the art form and do it better than everyone before me"...

This is one of the reasons I left this forum. I find the notion that people think Dario is brilliant quite amusing. While some of his techniques were ballsy and arguable, his aim wasn't to help, it was self-aggrandizing. He has been doing bonsai for what-- five years? Ask him about how many trees have failed his processes, along with the successes. You won't get an answer. The constant drumbeat of his posts and his knee-jerk willingness to throw out advice about which he knows nothing (like how to overwinter trees, while having no experience with winter, as he lives in South Texas, as well as advice for species he had no experience with), drove me nuts. Arguing with him made me realize how futile posting on the Internet is. Some of what he posted would cause irreparable damage to some species, while some could have resulted in the immediate death of another person's tree.
 
i dont post much - but had to take the time to say this

its good to see a post from rockm - i remember you from the bonsaitalk days and always enjoyed your posts (and valued your advice/experience)

same goes for don - hate to see either of you leave the forum because i enjoy your posts.
 
I see a tree like Dario has here, and this what I would like to see done to it... Walter Pall is an inova
"I think the same could be said of the posts Dario made while he was here that rubbed people the wrong way. He would post things that Basically just were intended to mean "I am trying to find a new way to do something", but the way he worded it, people took his comments to mean something more like "I am brand new at this and I already came up with a better way to do things than all you dummies who have been doing it for 20-30+ years... Because I am so smart I can thumb my nose at CENTURIES of Bonsai practice, remake the art form and do it better than everyone before me"...

This is one of the reasons I left this forum. I find the notion that people think Dario is brilliant quite amusing. While some of his techniques were ballsy and arguable, his aim wasn't to help, it was self-aggrandizing. He has been doing bonsai for what-- five years? Ask him about how many trees have failed his processes, along with the successes. You won't get an answer. The constant drumbeat of his posts and his knee-jerk willingness to throw out advice about which he knows nothing (like how to overwinter trees, while having no experience with winter, as he lives in South Texas, as well as advice for species he had no experience with), drove me nuts. Arguing with him made me realize how futile posting on the Internet is. Some of what he posted would cause irreparable damage to some species, while some could have resulted in the immediate death of another person's tree.
i tried to take what he said with a grain of salt normally myself, but I certainly understand your frustration. The good news (for you) is, he hardly ever posts here any longer... But that is bad news to a degree as well- at least he was posting a lot of interesting material to look at... There is a happy medium one can achieve between posting tips, posting trees and keeping our moths shut about stuff we don't know enough about! That is something I am probably guilty of myself at times and have tried to use what happened with Dario as a hint to myself that I could probably just shut up and let people with more expertise answer people's questions sometimes.
 
I like all 3 persons posts and many others as well. I get a little frustrated when language, intentions, and communications get harsh because of miscommunication... Sometimes I read things posted and think " who pi__ed in their cheerios" and proceed to another thread. I find that to be nonsense - just my 2 coppers.

Grimmy
 
In order to really determine if this particular "technique" has worth, we need to actually attempt to quantify value. The best way that I can think of to do that is to compare this technique to a more traditional technique for developing taper and evaluate the various differences in each method.

If one were to develop this same tree using a more traditional approach, the following steps would need to be taken:

Step One: The tree would have to be chopped at a relatively low point in order for taper to begin at the same point as in the existing version of the tree. This would look something like the image below. After the chop, of course, the tree would need to be left to grow for a number of years in order for the new leader to reach the thickness of the existing tree. I imagine a low estimate would be about 5 more years, but I suspect it could take even a bit longer.

step1-sm.jpg


Step Two: After that period of growth, the tree would need to be chopped again. At this point, our theoretical tree has reached about the same height as the actual tree, and will need to continue to be allowed to grow freely to remove the appearance of the chop and continue developing taper.

step2-sm.jpg
Step Three: This isn't really a step, but the point at which the tree will have caught up to the development of the actual tree. After maybe three years of growth after the second chop, the tree will have developed branching approximately equivalent to the size of the tree currently. If the tree is to be developed with no visible scars, it will have to continue to grow for another (I suppose) three or four years to allow cambium to grow over the wound and then possibly be chopped again. Otherwise, carving could be done to develop hollows or other deadwood features.

step3-sm.jpg
My estimate for the total time for development up to the point of step three is about eight years, and I think that's conservative.

Now let's compare that to Dario's work, which actually took only two years (the picture below was taken in February of 2014). If the intention is to completely eliminate the appearance of any carving or cutting on the trunk, the tree will probably need to grow freely for another three or four years. Otherwise, he could possibly begin carving this year.

dariostree-sm.jpg

Now let's do a quantitative comparison, so we can actually see a little more clearly how the two methods compare. I like to use a pro's vs. con's comparison for things like this.

"Dario's Method"
Pro's
Development period is shorter by 4 to 5 years (or more)
Original, developed bark is kept on a greater surface area of the trunk

Con's
The two sections of the trunk that were pressed together may not achieve full cambium fusion
Getting cambium to completely cover over the open area may be challenging

Traditional Method
Pro's
Tested and proven method for developing taper and healing over chop wounds
Trunk will be in one solid piece

Con's
Some of the original bark will be lost in the upper portion of the trunk

Quantifying

After the pro's and con's have been listed, some sort of value needs to be assigned to each one so that we can determine the weight of each factor. This is where things get tricky. Things like faster development may be more or less important to different people. Let's assume for simplicity's sake that each year in development acts as a negative score of 1. So that neither method falls into a negative score due to years in development, I'll start each method out with a positive score of 10.

Here's how I might score each method:

"Dario's Method"
Starting with a positive score of 10 points.
Years in development (up to current point): 2 ; points: -2
Original bark is kept on greater surface area (pro) - points: +2

The two sections of the trunk that were pressed together may not achieve full cambium fusion - points: -1
Getting cambium to completely cover over the open area may be challenging - points: -1

The final score for this method is 8.

I personally think that the cambium does have a chance of fusing together, and because this is something that is just a possibility and not a certainty one way or the other, I've only given this a value of -1. I have the same thoughts regarding the chances of the chop wound being covered over. I think if it's possible that an equally large wound could be healed over using a traditional chop method, the chances of this wound healing over, despite the unusual shape, are still considerably high. In addition, I am thinking here about the method itself, not this particular tree. Even if Dario is not successful in getting the wound to heal over on this particular tree, I do still believe that, if executed well, wounds and chops could be made to heal over convincingly using this method.

Traditional Method
Starting with a positive score of 10 points.
Years in development (up to current point): 8 : -8 points
Tested and proven method for developing taper and healing over chop wounds: +1 point
Trunk will be in one solid piece: +1 point
Some of the original bark will be lost in the upper portion of the trunk: -1 point

The final score for this method is 3.

Of course, we know that the traditional method works. It is reliable and proven. When we have larger trees, it may take some extra time to develop appropriate taper, but it certainly does work.

Now, let's say that number of years in development isn't really significant. We have plenty of time to develop a good tree. If we completely remove the significance of the number of years in development, we get slightly different scores:

Dario's Method: 10 points
Traditional Method: 11 points

Note, though, that the reasons for Dario's method's loss of points and the traditional method's higher points are merely factors of certainty and uncertainty. We are uncertain of the ability for the method Dario used to result in a whole, un-scarred trunk. We are certain that the traditional method can, when done well, produce a relatively un-scarred trunk. If we find that, using the method that Dario has attempted, a relatively un-scarred trunk can be produced, then these factors can be removed.

Hopefully this attempt at an analytical comparison can help some determine whether this method might be useful for themselves. Feel free to change the values based on your own opinion of the importance of each factor and add/remove pro's and con's to determine what works best for yourself.
 
I have found my time away to be refreshing... viewing this thread only reaffirms a lot of things...

First of all, yes I do believe that Dario created this thread to stir up trouble. I mean, come on... he is clearly calling out members in the title that he chose to use.

Now having said that, I can understand his frustration with senior bonsai enthusiasts claiming that because things have been done a certain way for centuries, that this is the way they must continue. They plain and simple do not.
I for one am thankful that they haven't, because bonsai, just like with any art needs forward thinking individuals to progress...

There is unfortunately a need for a lot of senior bonsai enthusiasts to show their superiority here at the Nut. Which is kinda funny, cause in the last couple of threads I have read, there has been advice given that has not panned out...

In the case of this thread, the back of Dario's tree was not obviously removed, and has not obviously had dieback. The other thread was regarding maples and how one should have a agent scouring the globe for prime material... which obviously sounds great and might account for why this individual has amazing trees, but does not really solve the problem for the majority who don't live in such privileged. Kinda reminds one of when millionaires just say the key to wealth is to just go out and get it. Which here again for those not so privileged, usually results in jail time.

On the flip side there are the talking parrots... who because of hearing things being said here at the Nut a billion times, or through the use of Google searches, are just passing on info that they have read, without actually questioning what they are relaying. Often these are newer folks who mean well, and cannot really be blamed for doing such, cause they don't really know enough to actually question it. They can be however blamed for their arrogant responses to someone questioning it, just as those who have been doing it for centuries a certain way and are holding onto their teachings of well it has worked for centuries, so this is the way, must be blamed for their arrogant responses to someone questioning them.

Questioning is what should be done always no matter what stage one is in regarding bonsai or life itself, this is how one learns. I personally question everything I do, so that I may improve, to not make a mistake again obviously, but also to hopefully find a better or easier way of doing something... if nothing else one finds out why one is currently doing what they are doing.

Questioning, sadly is a process that is not encouraged to much here at the Nut, which sadly is a shame. If one reexamine Dario's tree, and questions if it was a success, the answer obviously would have to be yes and no... did he resolve the issue of the chop scar? Somewhat... he traded off what was an obvious man-made cut to one that with future work could look quite nice... still a scar however, just a smaller one, but as a fellow bonsai artist, I am always seeking to minimize the negative aspects of a tree. The chop was obviously one of these features. So, in this in this aspect I think it was a success.

The goal was also to create taper, which he did at least he did on the sides where the procedure was done. There are obviously inherent risks to doing a procedure such as this which have been brought up, that this section could of died... and obviously he could of waited and grew the tree out for years to allow the original cut to heal over, which would of led to having to heal over future scars further up.

So, in conclusion was this a better way.. I think the answer would have to be no... just another way, which I feel was the whole point of the thread. Does it come off as some amazing procedure that everyone should start doing... I think the answer should be no here again. I personally don't think that it is some amazing procedure, but does it have to be? Most problem solving issues usually aren't.
 
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Truth is he pulls stuff off with trees that most would not be able to. Lucky? Talented? I'm not sure but he has started quickly, mostly by digging mature landscape. There have been times when he rubbed me the wrong way but getting to know him I believe he is a real good guy. Is he ornery? Yep but no more so than many others. I like the Nut House for the banter. Too bad the thin skinned among us get their bark scarred easily. I don' t think he should have left the site in a huff as he is the one that stirred the manure tea pot... He ought to have to lick the spoon.
 
I find the approach interesting whether it works or not.

I look at every post I come across with the mentality that I will either learn something I should try in the right situation or something I should avoid. Everybody's work is valuable to me and I appreciate those who share it.

Now I'll just get back to sipping my high quality craft brews and repotting. :)
 
Too bad the thin skinned among us get their bark scarred easily. I don' t think he should have left the site in a huff as he is the one that stirred the manure tea pot... He ought to have to lick the spoon.

Didn't you leave the FB group Bonsai Odyssey, which Dario started, because of a disagreement with him? Thin skinned? This kind of seems like the pot calling the kettle black.
 
"I can understand his frustration with senior bonsai enthusiasts claiming that because things have been done a certain way for centuries, that this is the way they must continue. They plain and simple do not."

Bullshite. This method is NOT ANY DIFFERENT THAN WHAT'S BEEN DONE previously. Drastic chops have ALWAYS BEEN PART OF BONSAI. This is hype and nothing more. the fact he is working with a species that is extremely resilient, closes wounds quickly and is extremely forgiving and hard to kill hasn't really been mentioned. This technique can be used with certain species. It won't work well with others, however. Explain that upfront before you start crowing about your unprecedented success with a "new" concept.

"Truth is he pulls stuff off with trees that most would not be able to."

Uh, most anybody can do this with a cedar elm. Ask him to do it with an azalea, or a hornbeam, or, well, something other than the cedar elm he's working with. I've done this myself with cedar elm, as have hundreds of other folks over the years, especially the people in Texas where this species first started being used. It kind of rubs me the wrong way when someone stands on the shoulders of the people that introduced this species, and crows about how he's mastered it and others have no clue..

"Lucky? Talented? I'm not sure but he has started quickly, mostly by digging mature landscape."
Another basic concept that takes most beginners years to 'get.' Yeah, what you start with shaves years (and a lot of work) off the process. Time, not luck or talent, makes older stock better.

"Too bad the thin skinned among us get their bark scarred easily. I don' t think he should have left the site in a huff as he is the one that stirred the manure tea pot... He ought to have to lick the spoon."

I am hardly thin skinned. I have been posting to bonsai forums for going on 20 years now. Have seen a lot worse. I have just grown weary of this kind of thing.
 
Dario did take a huge stove pipe trunk and make something with more taper, I'll give him that (we'll see if the tree lives longer term though).

I agree with rockm that his techniques are used on very tough trees like cedar elm, holly, boxwood, etc. -- I had similar problems with him using his experiences on material like that to give advice to others using more delicate species in different climates.
 
Didn't you leave the FB group Bonsai Odyssey, which Dario started, because of a disagreement with him? Thin skinned? This kind of seems like the pot calling the kettle black.

Sorry Jester, do I know you? Or can I call you Bobby?
 
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Well for one thing, if there is going to be debate and lively discussion about something, I am happy to see it be about a bonsai tree. The back and forth is good IMO in that it gives varying perspectives to think about.

There are several people that left that I feel were an asset and we loose something without..
I enjoyed Dario's trees and his bold approach and I miss reading about them.
October doesnt post any more and I miss his posts.
Sawgrass, although you annoy me at times, your trees were nice to see too.
Vic and Daniel(?), miss them too.

Rockm, I am glad you are back. Please stay
Don Blackmond, Please stay.
Even Walter Pall is back posting a bit.

While I understand how someone can get tired of the bickering (been there myself), lets try not to forget why we came here in the first place.
 
The overall "bickering level" seems to have been down for a while now (until this thread, maybe). Hopefully it stays that way.

Darlene, come on and post that pic you have of the other side. Otherwise, what's the point in having brought all this back up?

Chris
 
The overall "bickering level" seems to have been down for a while now (until this thread, maybe). Hopefully it stays that way.

Darlene, come on and post that pic you have of the other side. Otherwise, what's the point in having brought all this back up?

Chris
Ya'll are crackin me up. I posted the last pic. Lifted it off FB. Here is the latest...backside or...the other side. No matter. Looks healthy. Long way to go. I'm actually thinking about trying something like this, as an experiment, on a pepper tree about the same size I'm yanking out of my backyard. Seems it would only work on tough fast growing trees with a rough bark...image.jpg
 
Thanks for the partial reply Rockm...
First off let me say that I personally gave up arguing with you a long time ago, and some of the others more recently, LOL...

The only reason why I am now taking the time to address your response to what you have written in your rant, is to clarify my position and what I was saying, seeing that you have missed the point of what I was stating.

I was stating that just because something has been done for centuries, does not mean that it is necessarily the only way to do things, or even the best way of doing things. That's it... things have changed over the centuries in the way bonsai is done, and will continue to do so, whether or not some one is willing to embrace the change or not.

I will give you a more recent example, the pinching of junipers is falling out of favor... as most begin to realize the more beneficial way of instead, cutting back and removing foliage. Why has there been a change? Because someone had the bright idea of realizing that by pinching, you are in essence stopping all growth, and thus weakening the tree. Which can have substantial effects on the life of the tree itself.

Now, their are going to be some, and in fact i know some... who will argue that they have been pinching for years, and that they aren't going to change and why should they... they have the wonderful tree to prove it. To which one can only offer up the advice that if they were to try cutting back on one tree and pinch on the other, then compare the response time of the two... the one cut back has not been effected and all the while it keeps growing. Continued growth means faster and more efficient development of the tree, thus allowing one to progress that much further in a growing season.

Yet you will hear the same old response, well I am not going to change... this is the way I was taught, and the way I will always do it... Which is sad, cause one has stopped questioning, and has in essence stopped learning.

By the way... I am not a babe in the woods here, I am well aware of the fact that people have been doing trunk chops for quite some time now... which is why I didn't state that they hadn't. I also didn't claim that what Dario has done here is new, cause I am well aware that it is not... In fact I have done it on a Ficus, with results that have healed over completely, seeing that they have wonderful fusing capabilities, and can heal over large wounds quite nice. So, if I have done it and Dario has done it, it can't be some new procedure, now can it?

Side Note... although we almost never agreed on much, I am glad to see you back!
 
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