Mirai tree sale

[BobbyLane]

No they’re not out reach by a long stretch, except geographically for wild collecting or trawling through nurseries or time spent developing, but that’s kind of my point. What this is doing is giving a skewed view of what is achievable. For those prices you would expect them to be right at the top end, but they are not.

i dont agree on the bold bit Woocash, they directly show what can be achieved on the streams in regards to work done and time spent. i agree some of the prices are a bit skewered though. but as many have stated, people are also paying for a name/brand. dont be mad bro, its not your money being spent.

 

[Woocash]

I can understand this point of view. I’d be lying if I didn’t think in a similar fashion once or twice before. But my feelings on Ryan & Mirai have evolved.

Creating compelling bonsai content is hard work. Just writing my little blog on a regular basis for a few months has been a commitment. To me, these sales are the culmination of all the work, the videos, the creation of content that Ryan and his team have created over the years. They’ve created fans, an audience and a brand. Good for them. Well deserved.

The better question, and the one I heard Ryan ask himself on a video recently, is it all worth it?

I’ve never met him, but the weight of Mirai seems heavy upon his shoulders. I hope all of it makes him happy and fulfilled, because bonsai should make all of us happy, not stressed to the max.

Yes they’re all good points and I know my post makes me sound like I’m stressed about it, I’m just not sure that people should be getting ripped off like that is all.

He is clearly passionate about bonsai and education and it obviously helps lots of people, but unless I’ve got my head up my jacksy and prices are way inflated over that side of the pond, it just seems to me that everything mirai sells is too much by a long way.

I saw a 13” curved piece of fired clay for $860 on there the other day. Flipping madness. It just perpetuates the myth that bonsai is a rich guy’s game.

 

[BobbyLane]

Can't really explain the hanging root on the Coast Live oak. Oaks can be funky. That appendage just adds to the funk, I guess.

The maple forests are meh, particularly the one in the broken/repaired antique pot.-(for $1,100 that pot damage alone would be a deal killer for me).. The $3,500 one, however, has individual trees with some pretty nice nebari. The trees in it are connected to an original Nanpu kai student. Nanpukai was John Naka's prestigious instructional group, so it has a bit of a pedigree. It's also in a pot worth probably $600-$700. Whether all that is worth the money is up to the buyer though.

it could be that the buyer has the choice to make a feature out of it or remove it.

 

[AcerAddict]

FWIW - I'm not sure I could even keep a Rocky Mountain juniper alive in North Carolina. They are arid weather trees cold hardy to Zone 3, and are very susceptible to fungal diseases if you keep them in humid conditions.

What if you lived in Boone, Asheville, or somewhere else in the Smokies? Definitely not here at the coast. Humidity is far too high.

Corner of the napkin estimation for my club: less than a quarter of the members have spent 100 or more on a tree... that's rather sad.

Are there a lot of beginners in your club? If so, at least it shows a potential for growth in spending if they stick with the hobby. Or is it because you mostly have people who would be happy with nothing but a $50 tree for the next decade?

 

[smc]

Yes they’re all good points and I know my post makes me sound like I’m stressed about it, I’m just not sure that people should be getting ripped off like that is all.

He is clearly passionate about bonsai and education and it obviously helps lots of people, but unless I’ve got my head up my jacksy and prices are way inflated over that side of the pond, it just seems to me that everything mirai sells is too much by a long way.

I saw a 13” curved piece of fired clay for $860 on there the other day. Flipping madness. It just perpetuates the myth that bonsai is a rich guy’s game.

If you want a 450 year old tree trained by a master artist in a top tier ceramic... it is a rich guy's game.

 

[Woocash]

Not defending Ryan, but just some perspective. He charges what he charges. He's found a market. The fact ALL of those trees were sold within a few minutes to an hour shows there is a ready demand--and yeah, those trees are as old as advertised. May not be the specific age he's put down, but they're probably pretty close. Old trees like those are all over the Western U.S. As for "regular joes" like you and me, sales and prices like these can mean more old collected (and less expensive) trees finding their way to our market (at least here in the U.S.).

That has happened in the last decade or so here. Back in the 90's, Japanese imports were the pinnacle of bonsai commanding eye-watering prices. People paid premiums for imports. Those trees are still around, but the range of native species, including really old trees, has increased exponentially since then. Sales like these have spurred others to collect and sell for much lower prices.

As for the sales trees, there is "finished" and "show finished." None of those trees are ready for show, but some are pretty close. If you've ever worked with such old material you'd know that just getting them into containers alive in the years post-collection can be quite a job in itself. All of those trees have history and/or were collected by people who knew where to look and how to get them out. Not to mention getting them settled in a pot. He works with one of the premier collectors in the U.S. for big, old native conifers. Access to that collector's stock isn't easy to get. This is kind of irritating, but it is what it is. There are other collectors selling great stock for a lot less.

I don't think Ryan is a snakeoil salesman. Yes, he sets the taste and market, just like in-demand "real" artists do. Ever priced a Banksy? It can be galling sometimes, but I got over it. I'm not his audience, can't really keep a tree like that in my area and don't have that kind of cash to throw around. I've never purchased a tree from Ryan, but have seen him work at workshops. He knows trees and how to get them healthy and manage them, particularly old native conifer species. He has developed specific techniques for those native species and figured out how to adapt bonsai techniques to them--he didn't just apply rote Japanese practices.

One would think a lot of the people buying these trees live near Ryan or can make the effort to go see him. I wonder how many of those trees will stay at Mirai "in residence" with owners traveling to work on them. That's kind of how big time Japanese bonsai buyers operate--buy an expensive tree, have the nursery care for it...

Hey dude, I know you’ve been back a little while, but good to see you posting again.

I can’t argue with any of what you’ve said there and I don’t begrudge him because he created a market and is dining out on it. Fair play, we live in a capitalist society. The name of the game is buy low, sell high, but I’d love to know what his markup is on the junipers from Randy knight, for example.

 

[Maiden69]

Just for fun...

Which one do you think is worth more money? Picture is a little off size, the Mirai ponderosa is 28", the JWP is 29".
Ponderosa -
Age | 180 years old

Time in Training | 8 years

Origin | Collected by Randy Knight in the Rocky Mountains

Ceramic | Production Chinese Pot

JWP -
Age | ~50 years old

Time in Training | who knows

Origin | Imported

Ceramic | Production Chinese Pot

 

[LanceMac10]

Looks like his pricing was right on the money. Most sold within the hour.


If I was the seller I would be sitting there thinking I should have charged MORE!!


Great trees for the most part, just not in my price range. For others, chump change. Suckers usually ain't got stacks of money layin' around....

 

[MrWunderful]

Crazy how Ryan is twisting all these people’s arms to pay thousands of dollars to buy trees. Hes basically holding a gun to their head!

If you have to ask “why so expensive?” Or complain about the price, you should probably “stick” to your sticks in pots. Let the big boys play, there is always space on the sidelines to chirp.

 

[Maiden69]

I saw a 13” curved piece of fired clay for $860 on there the other day. Flipping madness. It just perpetuates the myth that bonsai is a rich guy’s game.

While I agree with you, you get what you pay for... You are paying for the brand and the reputation. Just like some women buy a purse for $300 from Michael Kohrs, or $5000 from Loui V, or stupid expensive and often ugly as hell Hermes Birkin...

 

[Woocash]

It is easy to look at a big number like $130K and think "wow, that's huge". But considering it is an annual sale - and that his profit margin might be 50% on those trees after materials, pots and labor - that number doesn't go far at all for a business in Portland. I'll bet it doesn't even cover a month of his operating expenses. I actually view it almost like a charity event - an opportunity to own some of the trees that are featured on his streams.

Am I envious? Somewhat... but maybe not. I look at his $15K tree and really like it. But I ask myself if I had $15K in loose pocket change would I buy that tree? No. Not because I don't think it's worth that amount (to some people). It isn't worth it to me - and why I enjoy bonsai. I enjoy the process of locating trees and styling them. I am not a "buy a finished bonsai" kinda guy. It's sort of like - would you be happier painting an oil painting, or buying a painting by a highly regarded artist? Different strokes for different folks... and that's fine.

None. I don't know of a single collection that buys trees. They display trees that are donated from numerous sources. The core of the collection at the National Bonsai Pavillion are the trees given to the USA from Japan to celebrate the country's bicentennial. The extensive collection at the Huntington Gardens are all trees donated by top names in California bonsai. For most collectors, having one of your trees featured (and cared for) in a permanent collection at one of these gardens is the ultimate honor.

In the case of the Huntington, they actually turn many trees away. Each tree has to be meaningful, and contribute to the collection in a meaningful way - because the tree is a perishable item that has to be maintained. Now suiseki... those you can collect ad nauseum You should see the trailers full of suiseki they have.

It’s not the overall figure that is so shocking, but the manner and speed at which it comes about. It just leaves a bit of a nasty taste in the mouth because the concept basically says to people, “Here’s a lucky dip, give me several grand and I’ll give you a random tree”. Most people who would buy have already decided they’re going to, regardless of the selection and so when standard quality trees come up in such a fire sale type fashion people are waiting with baited breath to throw their money at them because they know they don’t have any time for rational decisions. It’s just madness.

 

[Maiden69]

That madness is in everything... look up Ormsby guitars from Australia, I know Perry since 2004. He is a beast at what he does, and in the last few years before he started his Korean built guitars he used to open up the custom shop sale (the amount of guitars he was going to do that year) at the beginning of the year, within 30 minutes they were sold out. The first 2 runs of the Korean guitars sold the same, open the pre-order, a few hours there were no guitars available.

It is a supply and demand market, and when you are one of the best there is, that's how the market behaves.

 

[SniffingKrylon]

At the end of the day, if you have the pockets for it, go for it. If you don’t, mind your garden. If you can’t afford it you just don’t want it enough. Same goes for everything, if you want it you’re already half way there.

 

[Woocash]

At the surface, I can see why you’d be annoyed by it, but as someone who sees first hand the amount of knowledge,labor and work that goes into collecting ,proper care, development , maintenance, procurement (trees,pots, soil, tools, water, etc.) the Bonsai personally owned by a professionals collection, trees available for purchase or client trees, it’s not uncommon seeing a specimen go for 4-5 digit costs. I think it takes perspective to see the how’s and why’s , when appraising trees no matter where in there development they sit.

I agree that spending that much on a quality tree makes enough sense. Especially when one has had the time spent on it to get it to that quality, but I just don’t see the vast majority of these trees being of that high a quality. Mirai can surely do better than for their one online sale of the year to be for this selection trees at these prices. It’s like he’s not even trying…

 

[Timarsen]

No they’re not out reach by a long stretch, except geographically for wild collecting or trawling through nurseries or time spent developing, but that’s kind of my point. What this is doing is giving a skewed view of what is achievable. For those prices you would expect them to be right at the top end, but they are not.

Good luck finding anything of that caliber already in a high-end bonsai pot and styled for that price... These prices are incredibly reasonable given the quality of material and pots and the years of expert-level care already given to them. And if you want to create trees like these yourself, watch Mirai Live where Ryan teaches you how with multiple live-streams and Q&A's a week and years worth of videos already in the archive. For a good trunk of these trees you can actual watch videos of Ryan creating/repotting/styling them and talking through his process with complete openness and clarity. These trees are a steal if that's what you want and I doubt any buyers have any regrets.

 

[Timarsen]

I agree that spending that much on a quality tree makes enough sense. Especially when one has had the time spent on it to get it to that quality, but I just don’t see the vast majority of these trees being of that high a quality. Mirai can surely do better than for their one online sale of the year to be for this selection trees at these prices. It’s like he’s not even trying…

Or selling trees isn't his business model. He speaks candidly about tree sales being a way of sharing world class material with the US bonsai community when he needs to clear room in his garden. He doesn't want to create trees to sell off to people who will most likely kill them, he wants to create world-class trees and keep them. So he sells his knowledge through Mirai Live as a way to support his art and he's freaking fantastic at it!

 

[AcerAddict]

It’s not the overall figure that is so shocking, but the manner and speed at which it comes about. It just leaves a bit of a nasty taste in the mouth because the concept basically says to people, “Here’s a lucky dip, give me several grand and I’ll give you a random tree”. Most people who would buy have already decided they’re going to, regardless of the selection and so when standard quality trees come up in such a fire sale type fashion people are waiting with baited breath to throw their money at them because they know they don’t have any time for rational decisions. It’s just madness.

It's just capitalism dude, plain and simple. If seeing the prices honestly gets your undies in a twist, then just don't look at them. I'm not speaking specifically about you, since I don't know you, but one of the biggest problems with 21st century western societies is that people living in run down apartments look at people living in nice houses and would rather spend energy complaining about what they can't have or control, rather than focus that energy on being happy with what they do have or working to improve their own situation. That's why so many high schoolers and college kids in this country want free education, free medical care, and $15/hour to work at Burger King or bag groceries. Capitalism doesn't work that way and an economy is not sustainable that way either. The money has to come from somewhere.

As far as rational decisions go, I think you contradicted yourself in that one sentence. You can't say "Most people who would buy have already decided they're going to [...]", and then in the same breath say that those same people are "[...] waiting with baited breath to throw their money at them [Mirai] because they know they don't haven any time for rational decisions." Think about it; if someone is waiting for the Mirai sale to open with $5,000 of disposable income at the ready, then yes, they have likely already decided they're going to buy something. However, I would certainly not say they don't have time for a rational decision. They already spent time before the sale making a rational decision about whether or not they would spend that kind of money. I can't afford a $5,000 tree, but I would not buy even a $500 tree on a whim. I would think about it rationally first. Knowing that Mirai trees sell out fast, I would decide before the sale if I was OK with spending that amount of money within 5 minutes of seeing photos of a tree.

Can everyone who owns a Yeti cooler actually afford said cooler? No, but they bought it anyway. Yeti doesn't care. They just want to make money selling coolers. They don't care if you bought a $500 cooler instead of replacing that set of bald tires on your car. Likewise, Mirai doesn't care where your money comes from. They sell trees to make money.

It’s like he’s not even trying…

Masters and professionals in their field often make the very difficult look very easy. It's called training, practice, and natural ability. Usain Bolt runs like he's not even trying. Guy Fieri grills up meat like he's not even trying. Michael Phelps glides through the water like he's not even trying. Ryan produces amazing looking trees like he's not even trying. See the pattern?

 

[Woocash]

Ah, I am sure you prefer the days of master artists being penniless.

Also - this is not much of a profit after operating costs, taxes, etc. And then he has to pay actual living expenses for a family. No doubt much of his money is earned through Mirai Live, not tree sales.

The trees are also pretty spectacular. It would be unrealistic for Rocky Mountain No. 5 sell for a few hundred dollars (e. the price for an "average joe") - between the rarity/age of the tree, the time/effort/cost it took to collect & transport, the time/effort it took to train (not to mention the imbedded cost of years of training/apprenticeship), the cost of the pot, etc. etc.

Have you ever walked into a fine art store? Even mundane paintings cost thousands. This is just a painting in tree form.

For those of us that cannot afford the best bonsai available, we can simply start with more common & younger material and then do our best.

I think you miss my point. RMJ number 5 is the only one that I can see as being a future show stopper, (yes I know, with all my years of experience) so this just seems like a fire sale of all the left over stock, but instead of it being a sale, it’s a price hike.

If he is a master artist then where are the master level trees for sale? Why just sell the end of line stuff (relative to mirai‘s reputation? Nao TK had it right, but did they receive anywhere near the 5k for their pot?

The other thing and the reason you cannot compare to mainstream art is that no other art form requires the purchaser to put in so much time and effort on top to maintain the art piece. Yes, it is art, but this time next year your 4,5,6 grand ”masterpiece” could end up on the log pile. You could say it is the duty of the artist to make it worth the investment In this case.

 

[coh]

Yes they’re all good points and I know my post makes me sound like I’m stressed about it, I’m just not sure that people should be getting ripped off like that is all.

Exactly who is getting ripped off? It's not like he's selling the last bottle of water in the country for $1000 or the last bag of rice or potatos...these are bonsai. No one has to buy one - it's a luxury. If the price is too high, then don't buy. Obviously to about 30 people, the prices were right. I'm sure there were many others who were willing to spend that kind of money on those trees but weren't quick enough.

These threads are always entertaining but at the same time, depressing.

Those of you who feel these trees are "rip offs", why don't you do the following:

1) Scour your local nurseries for a big based hinoki (or something) with lots of branching

2) Repot that thing which is probably in a burlap sack filled with clay with who knows what kind of roots - get that thing into a high quality bonsai pot and keep it alive for a couple of years

3) Style it so it looks cool

4) Post your results

Ryan makes that whole process look pretty easy...it's not.

 

[rockm]

Hey dude, I know you’ve been back a little while, but good to see you posting again.

I can’t argue with any of what you’ve said there and I don’t begrudge him because he created a market and is dining out on it. Fair play, we live in a capitalist society. The name of the game is buy low, sell high, but I’d love to know what his markup is on the junipers from Randy knight, for example.

Glad to talk to you!

FWIW, Ryan isn't living a life of luxury. That $100 K is not all that much for such an operation, particularly in his location. The Pacific Northwest isn't cheap. It's the home of a lot of tech money. The nature of what he's doing carries a lot of mostly unnoticed expenses. I've got friends who run a small bonsai/Japanese gardening nursery. Day-to-day overhead expenses can eat you up. Heating for greenhouses in the winter can top $10,000 for a couple of months. Water bills can be shocking as well. Not to mention the time and physical effort involved and the associated insurance.

This year, weather conditions are wreaking havoc on the West Coast. Fires, record heat and drought are using up water supplies, burning up property and making things very difficult. Mirai has also had to deal with vandalism and its aftermath. Ryan probably isn't having a banner year, which is one of the reasons for this sale.

And FWIW, some perspective on the trees here. The number of species and the quality of what is being offered (with a few exceptions) is mostly unmatched anywhere, including Europe. I have heard a few Euro collectors have paid similarly for Western U.S. conifers like this, as the quality of quantity of Euro collected trees isn't as broad or deep. Yeah, Ryan has substantial mark up, but he also knows where to get stuff, GOOD stuff.

And also FWIW, the high end of any hobby is mostly the territory of the rich. Bonsai is no exception. Sports cars, motorcycles, art collecting, hell even an historically low-rent hobby like four wheeling have devotees with deep deep pockets.--I fell out of many busted down rusted jeeps and pick up trucks when I was younger. Now people spend $60 grand on a Jeep., or $80 grand on a pick up...