Mirai tree sale

[Woocash]

Exactly who is getting ripped off? It's not like he's selling the last bottle of water in the country for $1000 or the last bag of rice or potatos...these are bonsai. No one has to buy one - it's a luxury. If the price is too high, then don't buy. Obviously to about 30 people, the prices were right. I'm sure there were many others who were willing to spend that kind of money on those trees but weren't quick enough.

These threads are always entertaining but at the same time, depressing.

Those of you who feel these trees are "rip offs", why don't you do the following:

1) Scour your local nurseries for a big based hinoki (or something) with lots of branching

2) Repot that thing which is probably in a burlap sack filled with clay with who knows what kind of roots - get that thing into a high quality bonsai pot and keep it alive for a couple of years

3) Style it so it looks cool

4) Post your results

Ryan makes that whole process look pretty easy...it's not.

So if all that was done would it then be worth 4,5 grand?

 

[coh]

So if all that was done would it then be worth 4,5 grand?

I don't know, when you post your results we can all judge for ourselves.

 

[Shogun610]

I agree that spending that much on a quality tree makes enough sense. Especially when one has had the time spent on it to get it to that quality, but I just don’t see the vast majority of these trees being of that high a quality. Mirai can surely do better than for their one online sale of the year to be for this selection trees at these prices. It’s like he’s not even trying…

You’re also paying for the pot too, so it balances out. Some may have higher quality of pot than material , but you have to think bonsai is just a snap shot of time, it’s always evolving and changing, and those who are able to unearth what’s within the material is where the real specialty comes in. You’re just making a ass out of yourself , I’m sorry.

 

[Woocash]

I don't know, when you post your results we can all judge for ourselves.

ok, well to put it another way, how many of these are worth 4-5 grand? From nursery to pot.

 

[Woocash]

Or selling trees isn't his business model. He speaks candidly about tree sales being a way of sharing world class material with the US bonsai community when he needs to clear room in his garden. He doesn't want to create trees to sell off to people who will most likely kill them, he wants to create world-class trees and keep them. So he sells his knowledge through Mirai Live as a way to support his art and he's freaking fantastic at it!

So why sell any at all? Or why sell what he doesn’t rate at such a price.?

 

[coh]

ok, well to put it another way, how many of these are worth 4-5 grand? From nursery to pot.

How many of them sold for 4-5 grand? If they sold, they were worth it to someone. End of story.

 

[Maiden69]

If he is a master artist then where are the master level trees for sale? Why just sell the end of line stuff (relative to mirai‘s reputation? Nao TK had it right, but did they receive anywhere near the 5k for their pot?

Pots by Nao Tokutake: photo thread (in use!)

Like other photo thread rules: don’t make a post in here unless it has a photo! Except, it has to be a pot you own, by Nao Tokutake, and it has to be in use. I’d love to see what y’all have! I’ll start: This is a Red Huckleberry in a modest lil pot by Nao. I think I bought it from him in late...

www.bonsainut.com

As far as I can tell that pot was commissioned.

 

[Colorado]

I did not mean to suggest that I think the trees are not “fairly” priced. They’re all great trees. They’re Ryan’s trees, so whatever price he decides to part with them for is fair enough for me. I was merely expressing surprise at the number of buyers willing and able to buy them out so quickly. And perhaps a bit of jealousy…

Carry on.

 

[rockm]

I think you miss my point. RMJ number 5 is the only one that I can see as being a future show stopper, (yes I know, with all my years of experience) so this just seems like a fire sale of all the left over stock, but instead of it being a sale, it’s a price hike.

If he is a master artist then where are the master level trees for sale? Why just sell the end of line stuff (relative to mirai‘s reputation? Nao TK had it right, but did they receive anywhere near the 5k for their pot?

The other thing and the reason you cannot compare to mainstream art is that no other art form requires the purchaser to put in so much time and effort on top to maintain the art piece. Yes, it is art, but this time next year your 4,5,6 grand ”masterpiece” could end up on the log pile. You could say it is the duty of the artist to make it worth the investment In this case.

How many RMJs, Ponderosas, coast cypress and Limber Pine bonsai have you actually seen in the U.K.? Do you know what kind of work goes into any of those trees? This one remains unsold at $6,200

Limber Pine No. 3

An icon of Mirai, this literati limber pine defies many bonsai rules, and in that defiance, sits well in the wonderfully formed rinka-shaped yama aki pot from Japan. The context of the combination being a significant part of the tree and containers relationship. This tree has been repotted...

goods.bonsaimirai.com

It is about as high quality as collected trees come. Limber pine is not all that common as bonsai. A specimen with attributes (excellent trunk, deadwood, and elegant apex) like this one has don't come along that often. It's been in training 10 years. Worth every penny of that $6,200.

If you've worked with some of these species, you better understand why some trees are priced the way they are and why people pay for them. You don't see any "show stopper" trees in the thumbnail pics. I see more than a few. Pictures on a screen never do trees justice.

 

[Woocash]

It's just capitalism dude, plain and simple. If seeing the prices honestly gets your undies in a twist, then just don't look at them. I'm not speaking specifically about you, since I don't know you, but one of the biggest problems with 21st century western societies is that people living in run down apartments look at people living in nice houses and would rather spend energy complaining about what they can't have or control, rather than focus that energy on being happy with what they do have or working to improve their own situation. That's why so many high schoolers and college kids in this country want free education, free medical care, and $15/hour to work at Burger King or bag groceries. Capitalism doesn't work that way and an economy is not sustainable that way either. The money has to come from somewhere.

As far as rational decisions go, I think you contradicted yourself in that one sentence. You can't say "Most people who would buy have already decided they're going to [...]", and then in the same breath say that those same people are "[...] waiting with baited breath to throw their money at them [Mirai] because they know they don't haven any time for rational decisions." Think about it; if someone is waiting for the Mirai sale to open with $5,000 of disposable income at the ready, then yes, they have likely already decided they're going to buy something. However, I would certainly not say they don't have time for a rational decision. They already spent time before the sale making a rational decision about whether or not they would spend that kind of money. I can't afford a $5,000 tree, but I would not buy even a $500 tree on a whim. I would think about it rationally first. Knowing that Mirai trees sell out fast, I would decide before the sale if I was OK with spending that amount of money within 5 minutes of seeing photos of a tree.

Can everyone who owns a Yeti cooler actually afford said cooler? No, but they bought it anyway. Yeti doesn't care. They just want to make money selling coolers. They don't care if you bought a $500 cooler instead of replacing that set of bald tires on your car. Likewise, Mirai doesn't care where your money comes from. They sell trees to make money.

Masters and professionals in their field often make the very difficult look very easy. It's called training, practice, and natural ability. Usain Bolt runs like he's not even trying. Guy Fieri grills up meat like he's not even trying. Michael Phelps glides through the water like he's not even trying. Ryan produces amazing looking trees like he's not even trying. See the pattern?

No I get it with the capitalist nature and all that, I just don’t like it.

But is there such a thing as a rational decision when it comes to chucking 5 grand at something on the spur of the moment? You may have decided you were going to regardless, but if what you come away with is a poor choice then surely you’re original decision was not rationally made.

 

[coh]

How many RMJs, Ponderosas, coast cypress and Limber Pine bonsai have you actually seen in the U.K.? Do you know what kind of work goes into any of those trees? This one remains unsold at $6,200

Limber Pine No. 3

An icon of Mirai, this literati limber pine defies many bonsai rules, and in that defiance, sits well in the wonderfully formed rinka-shaped yama aki pot from Japan. The context of the combination being a significant part of the tree and containers relationship. This tree has been repotted...

goods.bonsaimirai.com

It is about as high quality as collected trees come. Limber pine is not all that common as bonsai. A specimen with attributes (excellent trunk, deadwood, and elegant apex) like this one has don't come along that often. It's been in training 10 years. Worth every penny of that $6,200.

If you've worked with some of these species, you better understand why some trees are priced the way they are and why people pay for them. You don't see any "show stopper" trees in the thumbnail pics. I see more than a few. Pictures on a screen never do trees justice.

That limber pine was in the 2018 National Show and I remember it well. It was very impressive in person. Comparing the current photo with the Exhibition album, the foliage masses have grown out and are now larger which reduces the impact a bit (in my opinion of course). I don't know if that is just them letting it grow out a bit for health or if Ryan was envisioning a change to the canopy structure. In any case, one could easily tweak it and bring it back to the 2018 level.

 

[coh]

But is there such a thing as a rational decision when it comes to chucking 5 grand at something on the spur of the moment? You may have decided you were going to regardless, but if what you come away with is a poor choice then surely you’re original decision was not rationally made.

I agree with this and have said a number of times that I don't like the mad-dash aspect of their sales. Kind of like how I don't participate in fb auctions where there is a hidden "reserve" price (just tell me the lowest you are willing to accept and don't waste my time).

Some people just want a mirai tree and if they have the $ and are willing to spend it, well...that's on them if they wind up unhappy. No one is forcing them to buy anything. I've been to all but two of the US National Shows, and most of these trees are in line with what you'll find out there, both in terms of quality and price.

 

[smc]

I think you miss my point. RMJ number 5 is the only one that I can see as being a future show stopper, (yes I know, with all my years of experience) so this just seems like a fire sale of all the left over stock, but instead of it being a sale, it’s a price hike.

If he is a master artist then where are the master level trees for sale? Why just sell the end of line stuff (relative to mirai‘s reputation? Nao TK had it right, but did they receive anywhere near the 5k for their pot?

The other thing and the reason you cannot compare to mainstream art is that no other art form requires the purchaser to put in so much time and effort on top to maintain the art piece. Yes, it is art, but this time next year your 4,5,6 grand ”masterpiece” could end up on the log pile. You could say it is the duty of the artist to make it worth the investment In this case.

I think you are fairly outnumbered here...many people do consider them master level trees (apart from maybe the tridents)

Also - that argument on the art form makes zero sense. Based on that, Ryan should live as a pauper simply because his art work requires somebody else to maintain it. But isn't that the whole point of bonsai? It is as much an experience as it is art.

I personally would love to invest the capital in one of these trees. They are breathtaking. I simply don't have the skill to advance them or disposable income at this point.

 

[rockm]

I agree with this and have said a number of times that I don't like the mad-dash aspect of their sales. Kind of like how I don't participate in fb auctions where there is a hidden "reserve" price (just tell me the lowest you are willing to accept and don't waste my time).

Some people just want a mirai tree and if they have the $ and are willing to spend it, well...that's on them if they wind up unhappy. No one is forcing them to buy anything. I've been to all but two of the US National Shows, and most of these trees are in line with what you'll find out there, both in terms of quality and price.

FWIW, that they were bought up so quickly, I doubt ANY of these trees were purchased "in a mad dash." I suspect the buyers who got them know the trees they got well and most likely are no strangers to Mirai and Ryan...The most expensive one went first...I don't think the buying was fixed or anything like that, just that serious buyers knew what they were after and had already considered the costs...

 

[namnhi]

Just for fun...

Which one do you think is worth more money? Picture is a little off size, the Mirai ponderosa is 28", the JWP is 29".
Ponderosa -
Age | 180 years old

Time in Training | 8 years

Origin | Collected by Randy Knight in the Rocky Mountains

Ceramic | Production Chinese Pot

JWP -
Age | ~50 years old

Time in Training | who knows

Origin | Imported

Ceramic | Production Chinese Pot
View attachment 392731

Pondy for me!

 

[Woocash]

Hey, if these aren’t inflated prices then 5 grand must mean less over there than it does over here. I respectfully disagree that these trees are worth the dosh, but it ain’t my money so there we go. I’m out.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

I really can't add much. I do have to say, I met Ryan a number of times before Mirai opened. He was in the middle stages of planning and beginning the execution of opening Mirai. At the time Ryan talked openly of bench marking a niche in the USA bonsai market. He wanted to take his experience of the Japanese market, and help create a niche of similar quality and priced trees.

Ryan trained at Kimura's nursery. Kimura does not sell $25 trees to novice bonsai growers in Japan. In all likely hood at Kimura's, the lowest priced trees are probably more expensive than Ryan's median price. Likely more than $4000 to get an entry level tree from Kimura's nursery. Ryan's stated goal was to develop a similar niche in the USA. I'd say he has done well.

He has worked hard to create a brand name, which is not just marketing, you have to have the skills to back up the marketing. He also encourages one and all to duplicate his efforts. He is very open, he shows how he does pretty much everything. He encourages others, he encourages potters, by selling their pots for far more than they have the courage to market their pots at. He is Benchmarking a niche. And is hard work is making it easier for other artists. For example, Bjorn likely has noticed it is easier to ask better prices for his trees, and his work, in part because Ryan has absorbed the initial price shock. As long as Bjorn is perceived to be a little less expensive than Ryan, he has a steady clientele without having to fight as hard for the higher prices.

I think Ryan's prices are fair, he is offering value for the prices he asks. And he is not asking those who can not afford these trees to buy them. He is marketing to the niche that can afford the prices he asks.

So I do not knock Ryan at all for his pricing structure.

 

[Maiden69]

Pondy for me!

Nope...

Ponderosa - 5400 from Mirai
JWP - 6050 from Brussels https://brusselsbonsai.com/japanese-five-needle-pine-st2420fnp/

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Key is, just because I am not in the demographic that could consider buying a Mirai tree, does not mean there is anything wrong with his marketing or pricing. I do not feel excluded because I can not afford $10,000 or more for a Kimura designed tree, or $40,000 to $250,000 for a Kofuku-ten winner. I don't feel the least bit excluded, I can enjoy the photos, I can contemplate possibly seeing some of these trees in person by going to a Kofuku-ten. I can also visit Mirai.

I don't feel excluded by Ryan or Mirai's pricing on their trees either.

Mirai Live - and other on line methods of experiencing Ryan Neil are really good value for the offerings, and are not as high end a niche as the sales of Mirai trees. There is a little of Ryan for everyone, at any price point. The free YouTube videos mean you can even enjoy some of his offerings for free.

 

[NaoTK]

Pots by Nao Tokutake: photo thread (in use!)

Like other photo thread rules: don’t make a post in here unless it has a photo! Except, it has to be a pot you own, by Nao Tokutake, and it has to be in use. I’d love to see what y’all have! I’ll start: This is a Red Huckleberry in a modest lil pot by Nao. I think I bought it from him in late...

www.bonsainut.com

As far as I can tell that pot was commissioned.

This wasn't a commission, Ryan visited me and bought it one day (I live ~30min away.)
But I will take this moment for a shameless opportunistic flash sale

reply if interested, shipping on buyer from Oregon

$400 slanted rectangle
OD:16x12x3" ID: 15x11x2.5"





$300 soft rounded rectangle
OD: 13x9.5x2.5"


natural color: