Mirai new nutrition concepts

[Glaucus]

4: Carbon and silicate.

Do you know what they actually mean with 'carbon'? They mention this a bunch of time, also on some podcast. But they never say what they mean. To me as a partial organic chemist, like all of chemistry I know well is carbon-based.
Though this as a solution to 'high salts' doesn't make too much sense. You'd think that rain or RO water would be the solution there.

Anyway, I see a bunch of people aren't so happy that Ryan is promoting this company. That's a bit strange to me as testing your soil or well water is perfectly normal for any farmer.

 

[KikurageOtomo]

Do you know what they actually mean with 'carbon'? They mention this a bunch of time, also on some podcast. But they never say what they mean. To me as a partial organic chemist, like all of chemistry I know well is carbon-based.
Though this as a solution to 'high salts' doesn't make too much sense. You'd think that rain or RO water would be the solution there.

Anyway, I see a bunch of people aren't so happy that Ryan is promoting this company. That's a bit strange to me as testing your soil or well water is perfectly normal for any farmer.

I can't say I have any strong feelings about the testing at this time, if anything I lean toward thinking positive results could come as a result of shared information regarding this subject. To the credit of skeptics, Ryan is first and foremost a business man. One can holler all day about how Mirai is a brand designed to advance the field of American bonsai, which it does. But it also pays Ryan's bill and enriches his standing as a professional. Does establishing a monopoly on the domestic sale of certain ceramicists serve any function for furthering American bonsai? Does cornering the natural resource of high grade yamadori help anybody but himself and his clients?

I have respect for his work, but there is a clear and obvious pattern of a large profit motive that isn't primarily loaded into the educational component of his brand. It'd be foolish to not be somewhat skeptical of somebody who seemingly increases the hurdle of entry into the hobby.

 

[coh]

I am glad Ryan is experimenting, testing trees, trying to find "better" ways to do this bonsai thing. However, I will be happy to sit on the sidelines a while and see how this pans out. I think back a few years to the last "revolution" in nutrition that Ryan was experimenting with - some kind of manure or compost tea. If I recall correctly, he went "all in" after limited testing, dosed his entire garden with the stuff, and almost killed many trees. If I've got that wrong maybe someone who is more tuned in can correct my memory or fill in some missing pieces, as I stopped subscribing to Mirai a couple of years ago and cannot go back to those old videos.

 

[Colorado]

I am glad Ryan is experimenting, testing trees, trying to find "better" ways to do this bonsai thing. However, I will be happy to sit on the sidelines a while and see how this pans out. I think back a few years to the last "revolution" in nutrition that Ryan was experimenting with - some kind of manure or compost tea.

My thoughts exactly.

Also, there is zero evidence that this “new” system is actually causing increased health in trees. Correlation is not causation.

Sure, it may be true that - anecdotally - trees are improving in health while this system is being used. Doesn’t mean causation. No “science” or evidence has proven that the same tree wouldn’t have improved with traditional nutrition and the increased attention of the practitioner.

There are many, many factors at play here. It could be as simple as that the “sick” trees are simply getting more attention, more exact watering, a better spot in the garden, etc etc etc.

It could also be true that this system does work very well (despite being a huge pain in the ass and significant monetary expense). Time will tell. But it’s too early to tell in my opinion.

 

[Paradox]

I think it's good to do this kind of research. I admire Ryan for using his collection as the guinea pigs for it. Back yard hobbiests don't really have the means to do this.

I understand the tendency to be skeptical and I share those thoughts as well. The company he is working with has an interest in expanding their market share as any good company would. Ryan may have a future interest in being a seller of anything developed with the company but imo he has a bigger interest: the health and well being of his trees. If he finds something that helps keep bonsai healthier, it will benefit him as he is in the business of selling trees. It will also benefit the hobby as a whole.

However of they do develop a product then sell that at exorbitant prices, there will be people shut out from it, but there will be those with the knowledge to come up with an alternative. For example, with my background in biology, and natural sciences, I can already think of things I could do if Calcium proves to be a big factor without having to pay for expensive nutrient additives.

 

[Colorado]

Right. I don’t think the skepticism comes from thinking Ryan has some kind of malicious intent to mislead people for his own financial gain. I certainly don’t think that at all.

It’s just that it wouldn’t be the first time a “good idea” had unintended consequences.

 

[shohin_branches]

Anyone else catch the Mirai stream on the new nutrition concepts he's been working on with Apical AG from August 10th? I just watched it in the library a couple of days ago and found it extremely interesting.

In (a very short) summary for those that didn't watch it, basically everything in fertilization and plant nutrition comes down to ratios between the different macro and micro nutrients plants need. Just because a fertilizer off the shelf is "balanced" (ie, 5-5-5 NPK) doesn't mean our trees are balanced on the inside, even if they're green and growing well. "A tree could look healthy on the outside but that doesn't mean it's healthy on the inside." That's why we're having to spray insecticide and fungicide more and more. A truly healthy tree could have up to 95% resistance without the need of spraying anything.
Also, most fertilizers sold in stores mostly contain the NPK and other trace elements, but are missing one of the most important nutrient: Calcium. In Ryan's testing of his trees at Mirai, he mentioned 199 out of 200 trees were calcium deficient.
The point of the stream in general is to test our trees and figure out exactly what they have and what they need, and take the recommended steps to detoxify them and balance the nutrition by feeding them what they actually need.

What are your thoughts on this? I'd love to get my trees tested, but at $85 per tree for testing, it would add up quite quickly. I'm thinking of testing one or two of my trees to get a general idea and go from there. Even though supposedly it can vary quite a bit between species, even if they're fed the exact same thing. No matter how much I try to keep up on fungicide regiments, I always seem to struggle with it year after year, especially my trident Maples. That's why I'd like to give this new way of looking at nutrition a try and see if it improves.

Anyone else thinking of testing your trees?

No I won't be testing my trees. The price is steep and I don't see it as that necessary.

Calcium deficiency (at least in my area) is generally not due to lack of calcium in the soil but a lack of bioavailable calcium. If the pH is too high the soil is alkaline then it's harder for roots to absorb soil calcium. Adding calcium also raises the pH.
Understanding the specific soil and nutritional needs of your tree species is important but also worth noting that sterile soil isn't really how trees evolved.
There is a lot of great soil science information out there, generally around agriculture, but also tree health and if you adjust your mix for the species you're working with you'll have better success.

I know mycorrhizae have gotten popular again but people don't realize that many fungi are symbiotic with only one particular genus of plant. You can't just throw mycelium into a pot to inoculate it and bam your tree will be suddenly happy. You may not have the right mycelium for the tree you're growing. This is something we talk about a lot in the foraging community because if you're in a forest that doesn't contain the trees that are symbiotic with a type of fungus you're looking for you're not gonna find it.
https://www.mnforager.com/post/trees-morels-and-mycorrhizal-relationships

 

[shohin_branches]

In addition, I've not sprayed a fungicide or insecticide at all since.

What are you doing for bark borer prevention?

 

[AJL]

I think it's good to do this kind of research. I admire Ryan for using his collection as the guinea pigs for it. Back yard hobbiests don't really have the means to do this.

I understand the tendency to be skeptical and I share those thoughts as well. The company he is working with has an interest in expanding their market share as any good company would. Ryan may have a future interest in being a seller of anything developed with the company but imo he has a bigger interest: the health and well being of his trees. If he finds something that helps keep bonsai healthier, it will benefit him as he is in the business of selling trees. It will also benefit the hobby as a whole.

However of they do develop a product then sell that at exorbitant prices, there will be people shut out from it, but there will be those with the knowledge to come up with an alternative. For example, with my background in biology, and natural sciences, I can already think of things I could do if Calcium proves to be a big factor without having to pay for expensive nutrient additives.

This really boils down to nothing new!! It just sounds like yet another attempt to market the latest new 'niche' product to gullible hobbyists! Its not as if many of us actually have any problem with calcium deficiency in our trees or gardens!
And Ive certainly not found any need to have to add calcium to keep my garden and bonsai healthy- quite the reverse in fact !!
The only exception might be an occasional application of lime if I was growing brassicas on my allotment!

 

[Paradox]

This really boils down to nothing new!! It just sounds like yet another attempt to market the latest new 'niche' product to gullible hobbyists! Its not as if many of us actually have any problem with calcium deficiency in our trees or gardens!
And Ive certainly not found any need to have to add calcium to keep my garden and bonsai healthy- quite the reverse in fact !!
The only exception might be an occasional application of lime if I was growing brassicas on my allotment!

Like I said in my post, I agree with being skeptical and wanting more info. That is just being a smart consumer, but I will temper it with a "I'll wait and see what comes of it" before I jump to "this is just another snake oil money grab"

 

[shohin_branches]

Like I said in my post, I agree with being skeptical and wanting more info. That is just being a smart consumer, but I will temper it with a "I'll wait and see what comes of it" before I jump to "this is just another snake oil money grab"

Yeah that's my biggest concern is that it appears to be a marketing funnel. They run the tests and create a report then sell the solution.

If someone has concerns about soil health most university extension programs offer soil testing. When nutrient issues pop up it is detrimental to your plant health to guess what the cause is and throw products at it. The better solution is to learn how to test and monitor your soil and understand plant physiology enough so you can gather enough information to take action.

I went to school for horticulture so for me, plant health and assessment of symptoms is second nature. I grew up working at my uncle's tree nursery/garden center. I don't just understand plant physiology within the silo of bonsai, but also through decades of vegetable gardening, ornamental gardening, foraging, forest ecology, raising and selling a wide variety of carnivorous plants that live in a special ecological niche. I have worked on timber farms, lavender farms, I even did tissue culturing and spawn inoculation on a mushroom farm.

I highly recommend learning from a variety of sources and applying that understanding to how you grow bonsai.

There is no single "right" way to grow plants.

 

[Lorax7]

Time will tell. But it’s too early to tell in my opinion.

Actually, I don’t think time, on its own, is sufficient to tell (at least not in a scientific sense) because of the methodological issues you’ve already outlined. If you really want to know for sure, anecdotal evidence (even a mountain of it, accumulated over years) just won’t get you there. Careful study design with randomized control and treatment groups, rigorous inclusion/exclusion criteria, protocols that specify exactly what is to be done to the trees and when and how, rigorous data collection and statistical analyses — that’s what would really be necessary to produce generalizable scientific knowledge that nails down cause and effect.

 

[JackHammer]

I have chickens and they eat oyster shells to keep their eggs hard. I put some oyster shells in my soil. Idk if it does anything but my trees haven't laid any eggs in a while.

 

[shohin_branches]

I have chickens and they eat oyster shells to keep their eggs hard. I put some oyster shells in my soil. Idk if it does anything but my trees haven't laid any eggs in a while.

This was the least disturbing "tree laying an egg" image that AI generated for me

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Interesting suite of comments.

It seems there are the folks that have heard and seen all the streams over the past two years, those who have seen/heard some and those who haven’t at all. Opinions abound.

That’s the way things work on this forum some times. It hard tell who has a basis to have an informed opinion on the situation and who hasn’t.

Anyways, no matter. I’ve been observing the process first hand every week, seen some reports, speaking to the operators, and observing the results for the past two years. In fact my better half and I work on all the trees in one of the largest high quality trial collections.

Beyond my overall observations that things are going really well, It seems best to leave it at that.

best to all,
DSD sends

 

[badatusernames]

I'm going to be honest I only read the first two posts and this stuff is fascinating but not for me, I feel like I just realized there's a point at which I stop caring.

I think I'm just going to use biogold and some other stuff and hope it's ok, it's super cool that people are getting this granular but it's kind of audiophile levels of bonsai kinda thing for people who just want to grow them OK

Some people roast their own coffee too and that is rad and I will be happy to take a cup - I look forward to following along but being OK with not internalizing.

 

[badatusernames]

Oh but also, Ryan Neil once said, on camera, that he had a sponsorship with the specific kind of paper towel he was wrapping copper wire with while wiring a Japanese Maple, and I didn't get the impression that he was joking.

So like

Just saying

For some the paper towel matters, and for others it does not. It's fine.

 

[IzzyG]

What are you doing for bark borer prevention?

Nothing beyond trying to keep them healthy. Most cases with borers are with weakened trees. So far I’ve had one incident of it but am suspicious that it came into the collection already infected. That tree looked healthy but had a couple of other symptoms that hinted it was actually weakened so it made sense.

 

[Paradox]

I highly recommend learning from a variety of sources and applying that understanding to how you grow bonsai.

There is no single "right" way to grow plants.

I agree with this. Taking the time to educate yourself is the best way.
I never take anything at face value, particularly if its some new "miracle" product being touted by someone trying to expand their market.

 

[Paradox]

Interesting suite of comments.

It seems there are the folks that have heard and seen all the streams over the past two years, those who have seen/heard some and those who haven’t at all. Opinions abound.

That’s the way things work on this forum some times. It hard tell who has a basis to have an informed opinion on the situation and who hasn’t.

Anyways, no matter. I’ve been observing the process first hand every week, seen some reports, speaking to the operators, and observing the results for the past two years. In fact my better half and I work on all the trees in one of the largest high quality trial collections.

Beyond my overall observations that things are going really well, It seems best to leave it at that.

best to all,
DSD sends

Just to get clarification, you are testing the same stuff mentioned in Ryan's stream independently on a different collection of trees?

I think that is good if so.

As a scientist, I would like more information about the testing when it becomes available so I can see it for myself.

You say things are "going well". Id assume the collection is otherwise being taken care of and maintained and this isnt a result of whatever testing you are doing. I acknowledge that this kind of thing (testing on a large variety of trees) is very hard to get conclusive evidence for without 1000s so replication on the a set of similar test subjects (ie all seedlings of the same species).