Diving In Feet First

[Bonsai Nut]

Well I'll jump in feet first and just say...

Regardless of soil, once I replant junipers, I don't do anything else to them for a year.

If there was one mistake I made when I started, it was that I tried to do too much, too soon. I was so excited that I wanted to repot one weekend, style another weekend, trim another weekend... and I killed a lot of trees. Some trees handle it better than others, but all trees need rest periods after you do something dramatic. One reason why I have a lot of trees is so that I can work on a tree and then put it down for 6 months, and still have lots of other trees to work on

The other thing I will say (without trying to sound preachy) is that one day I was assisting a bonsai master from Japan. He was working on a person's trees in a garden and I was alone with him. He didn't speak much English, and was probably still jet lagged. I kept asking him questions about everything he was doing. In fact, for the first 30 minutes I probably didn't shut up. Finally he looked at me and said - "In Japan, when you learn bonsai, you learn by watching. Don't speak." I was extremely embarrassed. For the next hour I didn't say a word. And I started to learn a lot

 

[Poink88]

Well I'll jump in feet first and just say...

Regardless of soil, once I replant junipers, I don't do anything else to them for a year.

If there was one mistake I made when I started, it was that I tried to do too much, too soon. I was so excited that I wanted to repot one weekend, style another weekend, trim another weekend... and I killed a lot of trees. Some trees handle it better than others, but all trees need rest periods after you do something dramatic. One reason why I have a lot of trees is so that I can work on a tree and then put it down for 6 months, and still have lots of other trees to work on

The other thing I will say (without trying to sound preachy) is that one day I was assisting a bonsai master from Japan. He was working on a person's trees in a garden and I was alone with him. He didn't speak much English, and was probably still jet lagged. I kept asking him questions about everything he was doing. In fact, for the first 30 minutes I probably didn't shut up. Finally he looked at me and said - "In Japan, when you learn bonsai, you learn by watching. Don't speak." I was extremely embarrassed. For the next hour I didn't say a word. And I started to learn a lot

A lot of wise words there for someone willing to listen.

 

[namnhi]

"when you learn bonsai, you learn by watching. Don't speak" - This apply to America as well. Very funny.

I didn't see any comment on how terrible the shim look after the trim. The original looks quite nice.

 

[Bill S]

Hi my name is"insert name here"( i saw it but w/ the reaction I don't remember) and I have been doing bonsai for a year and I know everything, so when i ask you a question, please feel free to shut the hell up. Why is everone so hostile here.

Funny how all you good folk, ESPECIALLY you rockm really suck for trying to add to this fine young mans knowledge at yor own expense', how dare you. Didn't you know that after successfully doing bonsai for more than a year your knowledge base is just screwed up, how dare you answer my questions, and give me advice.

Kiddo, I ain't so pc as many here, if you don't want good advise, get the hell out, if nothing else after what you have accomplished(even Will Heath - that Voldemort to you, didn't seem to piss off as many as you have as quickly, and the online community had already decided to hate him.) I don;t think I would trust an answer you might get. SO take your years experiance and grow trees, blow peas, what ever it is you decide you want to do. If it's grow good bonsai, come onback, and start with an appology, anything else is your lack of common sense.

Ya I know, there are a couple of typos so I guess I'm on your S list, hav efun, show us some photos of your trees in a few yaers so we can see what a real man does w/ trees and little knowledge.

 

[october]

Man, this thread has a lot of views.. More than threads of nearly completed specimen trees that have been up for a very long time...I guess battles have always been popular, like since gladiator times

If I may address something important that I don't think was mentioned. I don't think anything had mentioned about time and slow conifer growth. Although there is merit to mixing soil that that is geared towards a certain climate. In this case, hot and dry. The test of a soils merit is time. What has not been mentioned is that even if a tree that is not in good soil, it might do ok for a little while. You had mentioned that it did well for a year. That is a good sign. However, given that conifers can grow quite slowly and go through a dormant preiod for 3 months. 1 year is not that long. Also, stressed trees or trees that have had an enormous amount of work done, sometimes go into like a shock like state. They actually don't grow when they are supposed to and sometimes don't start growing again until later in the season. Sometimes, a tree will not grow much for an entire season, then the following season, it will grow well. Basically given that conifers grow pretty slow sometimes..It might be difficult to use 1 year as an accrate assessment of the soil. Also, important is soil breakdown. Although your trees are young so you will be able to repot maybe every 3 years or when needed. The reason why bonsai soil is so granular is only for drainage, but also breakdow factors. Some bonsai cannot be repotted often. Sometimes for 5-7 years. They mush have a soil that breaks down slowly and still will provide good drainage even after a few years.

I have no claim here and am not taking sides or asking for a soil change of any kind. I just thought I would mention some horticultural and plant physiolgy

Sincerely,
Rob

 

[Ang3lfir3]

I actually meant adding some pine bark (or fir bark) to the mix for a couple of junipers (chinensis). The bougies will stay as they are.

sorry I knew what you meant but my reply may have been a little jumbled.... essentially I figure you can give a try... not too much at first and see what happens ... or of course check with someone local...

 

[goosetown]

Hi my name is"insert name here"( i saw it but w/ the reaction I don't remember) and I have been doing bonsai for a year and I know everything, so when i ask you a question, please feel free to shut the hell up. Why is everone so hostile here.

Funny how all you good folk, ESPECIALLY you rockm really suck for trying to add to this fine young mans knowledge at yor own expense', how dare you. Didn't you know that after successfully doing bonsai for more than a year your knowledge base is just screwed up, how dare you answer my questions, and give me advice.

Kiddo, I ain't so pc as many here, if you don't want good advise, get the hell out, if nothing else after what you have accomplished(even Will Heath - that Voldemort to you, didn't seem to piss off as many as you have as quickly, and the online community had already decided to hate him.) I don;t think I would trust an answer you might get. SO take your years experiance and grow trees, blow peas, what ever it is you decide you want to do. If it's grow good bonsai, come onback, and start with an appology, anything else is your lack of common sense.

Ya I know, there are a couple of typos so I guess I'm on your S list, hav efun, show us some photos of your trees in a few yaers so we can see what a real man does w/ trees and little knowledge.

I understand wanting to defend your friends. That's fine. But if that's what you took from everything I was saying, you're a moron. Go back, actually read what I've written with even a hint of objectivity, and then try again. Or don't. I highly doubt I'm going to lose sleep over whether or not the community at bonsainut.com thinks I'm a swell guy. It's not the only resource in the world. And if someone would actually give me advice that causes my trees to suffer...what does that say about this as a community?

Again, go back and actually READ what I've been saying this whole time. Take a look at my other posts where I've been asking questions and engaged...ugh, you know what, I don't care. Don't read it. Just ignore me. I'm pretty sure I can learn to grow trees without you.

 

[goosetown]

Man, this thread has a lot of views.. More than threads of nearly completed specimen trees that have been up for a very long time...I guess battles have always been popular, like since gladiator times

If I may address something important that I don't think was mentioned. I don't think anything had mentioned about time and slow conifer growth. Although there is merit to mixing soil that that is geared towards a certain climate. In this case, hot and dry. The test of a soils merit is time. What has not been mentioned is that even if a tree that is not in good soil, it might do ok for a little while. You had mentioned that it did well for a year. That is a good sign. However, given that conifers can grow quite slowly and go through a dormant preiod for 3 months. 1 year is not that long. Also, stressed trees or trees that have had an enormous amount of work done, sometimes go into like a shock like state. They actually don't grow when they are supposed to and sometimes don't start growing again until later in the season. Sometimes, a tree will not grow much for an entire season, then the following season, it will grow well. Basically given that conifers grow pretty slow sometimes..It might be difficult to use 1 year as an accrate assessment of the soil. Also, important is soil breakdown. Although your trees are young so you will be able to repot maybe every 3 years or when needed. The reason why bonsai soil is so granular is only for drainage, but also breakdow factors. Some bonsai cannot be repotted often. Sometimes for 5-7 years. They mush have a soil that breaks down slowly and still will provide good drainage even after a few years.

I have no claim here and am not taking sides or asking for a soil change of any kind. I just thought I would mention some horticultural and plant physiolgy

Sincerely,
Rob

I think this is totally fair. Again, though, as has been my only point since this started: the trees are thriving now. If they take a turn in the other direction sometime in the immediate or distant future, why wouldn't I consider everything - including a soil change - to help them get better?

Merely as a point of reference: if you go to my local nursery, not a single plant juniper that is being sold or housed there (they have about a dozen or so specimens from private collections on show at any given time) uses inorganic soil. Shouldn't that mean something to me? In this particular post I'm not trying to be argumentative, october - I'm simply trying to get you to see where my mindset is and why I'm opposed to doing anything to change the soil at this point in time.

Like I said, if my trees go in a different direction, in all likelihood (among other things) a soil change is a distinct possibility. I'm simply not willing to change at the moment when nothing is wrong and all I've learned about my trees in my situation has been working.

 

[Ang3lfir3]

"In Japan, when you learn bonsai, you learn by watching. Don't speak."

certainly applies in America as well... while the earliest parts of my American apprenticeship included much hands on work (Daniel is a believer in doing not just talking) EVERY new session starts with a "Shut up and Watch" tutorial .... after that the tools are yours and the real test begins ... did you learn anything?... how close did you pay attention? the scary part being you are working on HIS trees.... (some of which he has been working on for over 50 yrs)

Bonsai is an art that can only begin to be learned by doing ... but it won't have any value unless you learn by doing with someone who already knows


There is a lot that can be learned by reading and even trying things out on your own ... but until you have experienced that split second before a major branch breaks under your hands a hundred times... you won't know when you've bent as far as it can go ....

 

[Poink88]

 

[mcpesq817]

Hey Bill S.,

It's clear that this guy with his 1 year of experience and his $5 junipers with FANTASTIC movement and roots (his words) in potting soil getting nine hours of direct sunlight on his balcony has it all figured out.

-- Wizard from the East Coast

 

[goosetown]

Well I'll jump in feet first and just say...

Regardless of soil, once I replant junipers, I don't do anything else to them for a year.

If there was one mistake I made when I started, it was that I tried to do too much, too soon. I was so excited that I wanted to repot one weekend, style another weekend, trim another weekend... and I killed a lot of trees. Some trees handle it better than others, but all trees need rest periods after you do something dramatic. One reason why I have a lot of trees is so that I can work on a tree and then put it down for 6 months, and still have lots of other trees to work on

The other thing I will say (without trying to sound preachy) is that one day I was assisting a bonsai master from Japan. He was working on a person's trees in a garden and I was alone with him. He didn't speak much English, and was probably still jet lagged. I kept asking him questions about everything he was doing. In fact, for the first 30 minutes I probably didn't shut up. Finally he looked at me and said - "In Japan, when you learn bonsai, you learn by watching. Don't speak." I was extremely embarrassed. For the next hour I didn't say a word. And I started to learn a lot

Again, that's totally fair and, I'm positive, good advice.

If you read through any of my other posts, you'll find exactly why I decided to buy, repot, and work with the particular trees I picked. The explanation as follows:

I have limited space on my porch in which to care for and display trees at the moment. And while I've immensely enjoyed tending to the older bonsai that I've purchased (or have been gifted to me), I wanted to try my hand and growing my own from either stock or from, for lack of a better term, a "starter" tree. Why? Because as much I've enjoyed watching, I far more enjoy and learn much more from DOING. Perhaps you are entirely correct and bonsai is much more about watching for a long time and I'll learn that the hard way. I'm willing to. But I like making attempts and either failing or succeeding, but learning from both. So I decided to take some simple stock, repot and prune a couple of very basic trees.

Now, you mentioned that, after repotting a plant, you let them sit for a while. From what I've read and gleaned over the past year (and I don't believe it takes a lifetime to conclude such, much to the dismay of some here), that's a personal decision that is neither right nor wrong. As I said, I wanted to get in there and try. I didn't want to start with a $500 tree because, quite obviously, I'm not there yet. I wanted to start with a $5 tree. If it works it works; if it doesn't, I'll have a lesson for the next time and I'll try something different. Maybe even organic soil.

So unlike you, I can't have a lot of trees, and I was eager to start the more active process of learning. I've watched about a trillion videos; sometimes they let the bonsai sit, and sometimes they take it right from its container and start working on it. Sometimes they die either way. Sometimes they survive. All I can do is hope that what I've learned SO FAR both in theory and in practice can keep my trees healthy and then continue to learn as they grow. If they don't, I start over and learn more.

If that's a stance that anyone here would like to begrudge, feel free. But that's where I stand.

 

[goosetown]

Hey Bill S.,

It's clear that this guy with his 1 year of experience and his $5 junipers with FANTASTIC movement and roots (his words) in potting soil getting nine hours of direct sunlight on his balcony has it all figured out.

-- Wizard from the East Coast

Once again, you're the one who's floating this. I'm saying something totally different, but you're not willing to listen to me. So be it. Again, you're not the only person who knows bonsai, but you are a douchebag. I work with enough douchebags that I don't believe I'll be upset if I don't have to deal with them in my hobbies too.

 

[mcpesq817]

P.S. Bill S.,

It's clear that this guy also is a great judge of character. Thankfully he has chosen to grace us all with his presence so that we unwashed masses can have the error of our ways pointed out to us when we try to be helpful and offer advice.

-- Wizard from the East Coast

 

[Poink88]

(I work from home).

^^^ THIS is your problem. Your problem is not having too little bonsai experience, or the soil, etc. It is YOU and how you interact with people...you need to be surrounded by real people who can/will smack some sense to you when you start being silly.

Just a friendly advise.

(there I just broke my "do not feed the troll" advise)

 

[rockm]

I can't understand exactly why you keep coming back to this worthless place if everyone is a douchbag, know-nothing egomaniac and you have such a deep well of understanding that hasn't taken a lifetime to accrue.

What is exactly your point? You obviously have enough knowledge to do what you want to. Why the repeated posts asking for more worthless advice you won't follow? What do you want exactly? I mean beyond the fun of insulting the people you're looking to get free advice from?

Wouldn't it be more constructive for every one here for you to get back to work on those junipers of yours that have simply fantastic movement?

 

[goosetown]

^^^ THIS is your problem. Your problem is not having too little bonsai experience, or the soil, etc. It is YOU and how you interact with people...you need to be surrounded by real people who can/will smack some sense to you when you start being silly.

Just a friendly advise.

(there I just broke my "do not feed the troll" advise)

I treat people as they treat me. Pretty simple. Look over my responses. If someone approaches me with respect and consideration, that's what they get back. If they act like an ass, that's what they get back. If that makes me a troll, then under the bridge I go.

And while I work from home, my industry requires me to work WITH more people than you've probably ever met (and, on many days, quite a few more than I wish I did). This can be both a good thing and a bad thing, but suffice to say that I don't have an issue in my personal relationships because my first instinct isn't to talk down to someone because I feel I know more than they do. Based on the way some people treat other people here (not just me) and the fact that I have a few PMs in my inbox thanking me for addressing this issue on the forums, I feel as though I'm not the only one who's taken issue with it.

 

[daygan]

I just want to say that i really don't think goosetown is being unreasonable or unteachable here. In the beginning, he was asking a specific question about his trees, and getting a lot of information not directly related to his question from a lot of different people that could be interpreted as somewhat condescending and become quite overwhelming considering the group vs. individual situation. Now, many were honestly, sincerely trying to help and offer useful information, but I've read through this entire thread and have to say that at some point, things started taking a turn downward, and there is a very distinct mob mentality that began to arise. That's not cool.

I'm going to make a suggestion in terms that hopefully most here can understand - Can we, in the future, make a decision to treat newcomers as we would so respectfully treat conifers, with only one insult per thread? I think that would be nice.

 

[Redwood Ryan]

I treat people as they treat me. Pretty simple. Look over my responses. If someone approaches me with respect and consideration, that's what they get back. If they act like an ass, that's what they get back. If that makes me a troll, then under the bridge I go.

Not me, I just wanted to be the peacekeeper

 

[iant]

I realized I didn't have anything nice to say so I edited my post to not say anything at all