Diving In Feet First

[goosetown]

I can't understand exactly why you keep coming back to this worthless place if everyone is a douchbag, know-nothing egomaniac and you have such a deep well of understanding that hasn't taken a lifetime to accrue.

What is exactly your point? You obviously have enough knowledge to do what you want to. Why the repeated posts asking for more worthless advice you won't follow? What do you want exactly? I mean beyond the fun of insulting the people you're looking to get free advice from?

Wouldn't it be more constructive for every one here for you to get back to work on those junipers of yours that have simply fantastic movement?

Not everyone is a douchebag. Just you and a few others. And once again, you're saying something that absolutely isn't true. I've never claimed a deep well of understanding. In fact, I've stated several times that I'm well aware I don't. You keep putting these words in my mouth because you don't like the fact that your demands that I recognize your genius went unattended to.

In fact, I've met a few people on here who've offered wonderful advice that I HAVE followed, though recognizing that would cause your poisoned hypothesis on me to crumble. Which is why I keep coming back, though I may not for long considering many of the attitudes here. As I've stated many, many, man times before, I simply BELIEVE that I have enough knowledge to ATTEMPT what I want to do. There's a huge difference between what I AM saying and what you're CLAIMING I'm saying. When you get down to it, you just seem miffed that I pushed back on your soil advice for an incredibly practical reason that I've explained more than a few times. Because, as far as I can tell, you're a child.

And I'm glad you threw in that last line, because it's EXACTLY indicative of the dickish nonsense that I and many other novices have to deal with in arenas like this. So THAT'S what I want exactly and that's why I'm here: because not every master is a complete and total asshole, I can learn who those people are and attempt to learn FROM them. And you ARE a complete and total asshole, so just like in life, I can choose to not to learn from you. Which is what I'm actively doing right now.

 

[goosetown]

Interesting you say you work from home.... were there problems getting along with others at the office?

I've made no secret about who my name and location. You're more than welcome to look me up and decide for yourself. Not that I'm surprised that you still clearly haven't bothered to read a word I've actually written, though.

 

[Poink88]

... at some point, things started taking a turn downward, and there is a very distinct mob mentality that began to arise. That's not cool.

While there is some semblance of truth to this...I for one, kept my mouth shut for as long as I can but difficult since he kept bashing people who are actually helping him. You can make a choice and move on...not keep hitting back.

Goosetown, I doubt you deal with more people in person than I do. If you are in my industry with that attitude, you will most likely be declared lost in a very short while. Not a threat...just harsh reality when you disrespect and agitate people who did not give you enough "respect" that you expected. Being BIG and BAD ASS online is sissy talk. Hiding behind the monitor is the drawback of online communication.

As a rule, think that all the people you post a comment on will meet you in person tomorrow. Will you still say what you want to say, the way you want to say it? Or will you re-phrase it? Just a good rule to live by.

 

[mcpesq817]

I just want to say that i really don't think goosetown is being unreasonable or unteachable here. In the beginning, he was asking a specific question about his trees, and getting a lot of information not directly related to his question from a lot of different people that could be interpreted as somewhat condescending and become quite overwhelming considering the group vs. individual situation. Now, many were honestly, sincerely trying to help and offer useful information, but I've read through this entire thread and have to say that at some point, things started taking a turn downward, and there is a very distinct mob mentality that began to arise. That's not cool.

I'm going to make a suggestion in terms that hopefully most here can understand - Can we, in the future, make a decision to treat newcomers as we would so respectfully treat conifers, with only one insult per thread? I think that would be nice.

I think there are some good points that you make here. For newcomers, it may appear that people are not being very friendly in their suggestions, and that people may be cliquish and unwelcoming. But, I can tell you that most people here are have a real love for the hobby and want to make sure that people new to bonsai get started on the right track. So, things may be said that may sound critical, but in fact, they are only meant as friendly advice. I wish I had listened a little more about what makes good stock when I started out. Now I'm in the process of trying to get rid of stock that will never make good bonsai, which not only reflect sunk costs but also sunk time commitments that I can't get back. I think there are many others in the same boat that want to spare newcomers from being in a similar position a few years down the road. So instead of lashing out at those with good intentions (he did post asking for help), maybe taking a step back, listening and digesting what is said would be more productive for him.

As for the mob mentality, for a lot of us long time posters here, people get upset when someone new comes in and disrupts the community. A lot of people have offered good advice based on years of experience, and for him to be ungrateful and attack those people, is uncalled for and unacceptable. To the extent he feels ganged up on, he really has brought it on himself so I don't have any sympathy for him.

Then again, I'm just one of those East Coast wizards.

 

[goosetown]

While there is some semblance of truth to this...I for one, kept my mouth shut for as long as I can but difficult since he kept bashing people who are actually helping him. You can make a choice and move on...not keep hitting back.

Goosetown, I doubt you deal with more people in person than I do. If you are in my industry with that attitude, you will most likely be declared lost in a very short while. Not a threat...just harsh reality when you disrespect and agitate people who did not give you enough "respect" that you expected. Being BIG and BAD ASS online is sissy talk. Hiding behind the monitor is the drawback of online communication.

As a rule, think that all the people you post a comment on will meet you in person tomorrow. Will you still say what you want to say, the way you want to say it? Or will you re-phrase it? Just a good rule to live by.

Once again proving that you're either incapable or unwilling to read what I've written, I'm literally the only person in this thread who has ever used their real name. Go back. Look for it. It's there. Everyone EXCEPT me is hiding behind a monitor. I'm not sure how that equates to me being "big" or "bad ass", but I'm relatively certain it equates you either being "blind" or "mildly retarded".

How about you just make a pledge not to talk about or to me until you've actually bothered to read the things I've written? Because you are clearly talking out of your ass over and over and over again. But I guess that's fine when YOU'RE hiding behind a monitor.

 

[rockm]

"When you get down to it, you just seem miffed that I pushed back on your soil advice for an incredibly practical reason that I've explained more than a few times. Because, as far as I can tell, you're a child"

Dude, FWIW, You got upset because I suggested you may want to rethink your soil. Re-read the post. I read, re-read and re-read your incredibly practical reasoning and along with others suggested you might want to rethink it, that it might not be the best for your situation. Simple as that. No name calling, chest thumping or anything. I didn't even call you retarded or a coward.

As for talking out of my ass, do a search on my cowardly avatar and have a look at some of the trees I've posted over the years. I'm not talking out of my posterior. Before you take me to school over not reading YOUR posts, why not see where I'm coming from?

And for the life of me, I can't understand what's up with the "hiding behind my monitor" crap? People who've been here for more than a week know who I am. It's hardly a secret. Revealing your "big badass" personal ID makes you a man? Whut...???

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Guys let's get back to the functional point of this thread - or I will lock it. More tree talk - less ego point scoring - and the world will be a happier place Offer advice - or don't - up to you. The OP can take your advice - or not - up to him. And let's leave it at that

 

[daygan]

people get upset when someone new comes in and disrupts the community

Seriously? Amazing

for him to be ungrateful and attack those people...

Initially, most of what I saw was him defending himself, not attacking. That doesn't make him ungrateful. It sounds as if you're suggesting that if he doesn't just accept what someone else tells him right away, then he's ungrateful. That's not true at all. Each person who comes to this forum has the right to accept or reject ideas that are offered. In fact, goosetown didn't outright reject the information that was given him, he simply did his best to explain that he does have a good understanding of basic care, to assure posters that he was confident in that area, in hopes that that particular subject would not sidetrack the thread from his original intent, which was to ask about styling and fertilizing.

I'm just going to say it, and Rockm, I don't in any way mean any disrespect, but really, from what I can tell, the attacking actually started with this accusatory statement:

It's exhausting because you're not really here to learn, but to show us how much you know with an entire year under your belt.

He really had made it clear that he wasn't saying that he knew everything. The year of learning was just to evidence the fact that he felt confident with basic care. Now, that fact could, of course, be debatable, but he certainly wasn't saying that he knew everything. From there, things began to erode. When a person already feels 1 overwhelmed by many peoples' criticisms and 2 attacked, he wants to clarify those issues, and dismissing that attempt at clarification with statements like - "hey guy calm down!" really, generally, only make the matter worse.

Yes, after that, there were attacks from both sides. At that point, really, there's no point in bothering with saying this person was right and that person was wrong. But seriously, one person, with everyone else coming down on him like that - you really feel proud of that kind of behavior? Do you really, honestly, think that anyone will react well in that sort of a situation? Many will just leave the forum, exhausted and frustrated. The fact that anyone holds on in the midst of that only says that he is holding out hope for the general population of the forum. I think at some point, the cycle of attack-counter-attack needs to just be broken. That would be the mature thing to do.

 

[daygan]

Okay, I'm done. Sorry for that last post after you'd asked to move back to tree-talk, Admin.

 

[berobinson82]

I just want to say that i really don't think goosetown is being unreasonable or unteachable here. In the beginning, he was asking a specific question about his trees, and getting a lot of information not directly related to his question from a lot of different people that could be interpreted as somewhat condescending and become quite overwhelming considering the group vs. individual situation. Now, many were honestly, sincerely trying to help and offer useful information, but I've read through this entire thread and have to say that at some point, things started taking a turn downward, and there is a very distinct mob mentality that began to arise. That's not cool.

I'm going to make a suggestion in terms that hopefully most here can understand - Can we, in the future, make a decision to treat newcomers as we would so respectfully treat conifers, with only one insult per thread? I think that would be nice.

I think it has more to do with his tone early on. He comes in showing off his new acquisitions and admits to being a newbie. He took shrubs from a nursery and actually made mallsai! He was asked the same questions that are asked when dozens of others have come in seeking wisdom and advice and instead became defensive and proud. Attacked an entire state (which is an awesome state mind you) and was generally arrogant. Acting as though watching youtube and watering 2 plants for a year put him on even footing as the senior members of this fine forum.

I think he over-estimated his experience and under-appreciated that there were people trying to genuinely assist him... It's a dern shame that such a well-written, well-expressed and zealous person lost sight of why he came to this site. "TAKE TIME TO ACTUALLY READ MY POSTS" The words ceased to matter when the attitude came out. You can't fix ugly. This unfortunate person has shown us that his ugly was close to the surface...

As an aside, I'd love to know what nursery is offering such advice. Probably one that wanted to get him out of the store...

Bonsai Nut - I was writing before I read your post.

 

[rockm]

"with everyone else coming down on him like that - you really feel proud of that kind of behavior? Do you really, honestly, think that anyone will react well in that sort of a situation?"

Really? Read the post that I drew that quote from...

Lock the thread. It's going nowhere...

 

[goosetown]

"When you get down to it, you just seem miffed that I pushed back on your soil advice for an incredibly practical reason that I've explained more than a few times. Because, as far as I can tell, you're a child"

Dude, FWIW, You got upset because I suggested you may want to rethink your soil. Re-read the post. I read, re-read and re-read your incredibly practical reasoning and along with others suggested you might want to rethink it, that it might not be the best for your situation. Simple as that. No name calling, chest thumping or anything. I didn't even call you retarded or a coward.

As for talking out of my ass, do a search on my cowardly avatar and have a look at some of the trees I've posted over the years. I'm not talking out of my posterior. Before you take me to school over not reading YOUR posts, why not see where I'm coming from?

And for the life of me, I can't understand what's up with the "hiding behind my monitor" crap? People who've been here for more than a week know who I am. It's hardly a secret. Revealing your "big badass" personal ID makes you a man? Whut...???

I'm not even sure what your last paragraph is supposed to mean. You're referring to a response I made to someone else about something they said to me directly. Why are you now pretending that I said it to you? I even quoted the other person in my response so it was clear. I have no idea where you're going with that. If you're calling back to something from earlier, YOU were the one who started in with the "Don't you know who I am?" fake mafioso bullshit. If I cared who you were, I'm sure I could have found out.

As I'm not going to over the point with you again, let me instead ask a question: WHY should I take your advice and consider changing my soil? I've been working with a professional who's gone out of his way to help guide me simply because I asked for help. I've listened to and applied his recommendations. My current plants had an excellent growth season and are doing very well. He knows exactly what I'm working with. If you were me, why would you take the advice of someone on the Internet and attempt to fix something that isn't broke as opposed to listening to the person who actually knows your situation and is helping you for free? Explain to me where the logic in that situation exists.

You offered your advice. I explained to you exactly and clearly why I wasn't inclined to accept it - rather politely at the beginning, I might add - and you (and to be fair, others) just condescended, told me I was wrong, and continued to ramble on like ONLY your advice matters. You might be an incredible bonsai master, but why would I want to learn anything from someone like you when there are others out there who as just as wise? At least then I can get my advice with a dose of humility and respect without having to feed an ego meter.

 

[Danilo]

And finally, here's the shimpaku. The roots were superb and I think the trunk will be fun to manipulate. All of the branches will get wired in one way or another. Overall, I think I'm rather happy with this one and can't wait to see where it goes from here.

As an added bonus: all of them drained properly and each tree seems firmly rooted in its pot. Now off to cross my fingers.

Also, if anyone can advise me on when I should fertilize them, I'd be very much appreciative.

View attachment 23875View attachment 23876View attachment 23877

You took a lot off this tree, why did you do that? do you have a plan for it where it will only have 4 branches?
The first pictures of it looked nice and full, and in time a bit of wire work could have made it into a nice shape, without having to remove as much.

 

[goosetown]

You took a lot off this tree, why did you do that? do you have a plan for it where it will only have 4 branches?
The first pictures of it looked nice and full, and in time a bit of wire work could have made it into a nice shape, without having to remove as much.

Thank you, thank you, THANK you for an honest criticism.

This is where I fully admit that my first time trimming down from stock might have caused me to make a mistake. I might very well have taken too much off, and of course this was something I worried about as I was going through it.

In short, I did not want this to be a tiered tree - I didn't go in wanting exactly four branches necessarily, but I didn't want it having a lot of branches. The two mature trees that I currently have are kind of an octopus style, which I really like. However, neither are shimpakus, and in looking at many, many, many shimpakus, I discovered that I very much like the ones that are more sparse, more minimalistic.

Perhaps I should have been a little less eager to trim, but as I really started to turn the tree and find its "path", as it were, I found that there were only four branches that seemed to be going towards the places I wanted to take the shape. So I stuck with those. I could have left some branches on, and again, maybe it was a mistake not to. My thought was to get down to what I wanted and direct attention and nutrients there.

Hope that answers your question!

 

[Bill S]

I understand wanting to defend your friends. That's fine. But if that's what you took from everything I was saying, you're a moron. Go back, actually read what I've written with even a hint of objectivity, and then try again. Or don't. I highly doubt I'm going to lose sleep over whether or not the community at bonsainut.com thinks I'm a swell guy. It's not the only resource in the world. And if someone would actually give me advice that causes my trees to suffer...what does that say about this as a community?

Again, go back and actually READ what I've been saying this whole time. Take a look at my other posts where I've been asking questions and engaged...ugh, you know what, I don't care. Don't read it. Just ignore me. I'm pretty sure I can learn to grow trees without you.

Bet you got a trophy for everything you participated in as a child didn't you. This is why children should be spanked every now and then.

 

[Attila Soos]

OK, so here's the first procumbens. On the plus side, the roots were terrific, the trunk has FANTASTIC movement, and overall, I think there's a lot to work with here. Still going to obviously prune this out some more,

Hi Goosetown, a fellow Angelino here...

A few initial thoughts.. The most important thing to create a decent bonsai, is to create a tapered trunk (there are a few exceptions to this, but those should be discussed in a separate thread, since they don't apply to your case here). Your tree has no taper....and if I understand correctly from what you are intending to do, has little chance of developing one. In order to achieve that, you need new growth on the lower third of the trunk. In your quote above, you talk about "prune this out some more". This tree needs the opposite: lots of growth. When I say lots of growth, I mean "strategically targeted growth", not just random growth. The strategy depends on the final size and shape of the tree that you are aiming for. Size and shape, equally important.
The easiest way to do this, would be if you took paper and pencil, and did a sketch of the final image of the tree that you would absolutely be happy with, say, in ten years from now. Then you ask the question: this is where I am trying to get, what's the best and fastest way to get there? The problem is, that many beginners are too shy and afraid to sketch, so that leaves the rest of us guessing as to what is what you are trying to achieve. The result is a lot of conflicting (albeit well-meaning) advice.

Just in a nutshell, when you grow bonsai from a very young material (such as yours), you are simultaneously doing several things at the same time: create root-base, build a powerful trunk, and build branches. With deciduous trees, you do the first two for a decade or so, then start the third one (branches). With conifers, the branch-building starts much earlier, but nebari (root-base) and trunk is still the highest priority. A typical beginner's mistake is to start thinking about pruning branches, before you even have a trunk. Design at this stage is irrelevant. In fact, if your young tree starts to have "the bonsai look" at this early stage, you are not only slowing down the natural process of creating bonsai, but you are actually going down a dead-end street.
Another typical beginner mistake, is to plant this pencil-sized little juniper in a bonsai pot. Trust me when I say this: you will never live to see this tree develop into a decent bonsai in that pot.

So, I am just throwing a few things your way, to think about. Building bonsai is like building a house: you have to break down the process into its basic components: blueprint, foundation, walls, roof, finishing, etc. In bonsai, it's roots, trunk, branches, and overall design. You have to separate each, in your mind, and learn the techniques. When you are talking about branch pruning and design, in your initial post, that's like starting your house with the roof, when you have no blueprint, no foundation, and no walls. It's a very common mistake, though, I am not holding it against you. Bonsai is a complex thing, and just like managing a complex project, you have to break it down into separate components (I don't know your line of work,but you may be doing that already in your profession). Later, when you become more experienced, it all becomes second nature, and you don't really think about every little thing separately. But this is the best(and only) way to do it successfully.

I am just trying to be practical here, and cut through all the emotional roller-coaster that has been going on for eleven pages in this thread. I hope this helps... (back to work for me, I need to drive from Downtown to Woodland Hills shortly, to my second company

All the best and good luck

(and Go Kings!!!)

 

[Victrinia Ridgeway]

This whole conversation needs a 'do over'.... a do over for Goose to set back and not take everything so personally, and everyone else to give Goose the benefit of the doubt. The voices we hear in our head which provide the inflection for what we read can often be so far from the truth of the matter as to be rediculous. That this thread isn't already locked is a mystery.

For my part, I hope that you can find your place in this group Goose...

Best wishes,

Victrinia

 

[Danilo]

Thank you, thank you, THANK you for an honest criticism.

This is where I fully admit that my first time trimming down from stock might have caused me to make a mistake. I might very well have taken too much off, and of course this was something I worried about as I was going through it.

In short, I did not want this to be a tiered tree - I didn't go in wanting exactly four branches necessarily, but I didn't want it having a lot of branches. The two mature trees that I currently have are kind of an octopus style, which I really like. However, neither are shimpakus, and in looking at many, many, many shimpakus, I discovered that I very much like the ones that are more sparse, more minimalistic.

Perhaps I should have been a little less eager to trim, but as I really started to turn the tree and find its "path", as it were, I found that there were only four branches that seemed to be going towards the places I wanted to take the shape. So I stuck with those. I could have left some branches on, and again, maybe it was a mistake not to. My thought was to get down to what I wanted and direct attention and nutrients there.

Hope that answers your question!

Those trees with minimal foliage are often very old, or mimicking very old and battered trees (years of abuse by mother nature). It will be hard to do something like that with the tree you started with, and I have never really seen a young small juniper that pulls off that looks without a really unique trunk. Those trees still have a significant amount of foliage on them, it's just that they are usually much larger trees, with foliage pads in a select area. The tree you have now will need a lot of time to grow out and put out some growth to fill in the gaps.
I absolutely suck at photoshop, but will try to do something with a picture of your tree.

 

[goosetown]

Hi Goosetown, a fellow Angelino here...

A few initial thoughts.. The most important thing to create a decent bonsai, is to create a tapered trunk (there are a few exceptions to this, but those should be discussed in a separate thread, since they don't apply to your case here). Your tree has no taper....and if I understand correctly from what you are intending to do, has little chance of developing one. In order to achieve that, you need new growth on the lower third of the trunk. In your quote above, you talk about "prune this out some more". This tree needs the opposite: lots of growth. When I say lots of growth, I mean "strategically targeted growth", not just random growth. The strategy depends on the final size and shape of the tree that you are aiming for. Size and shape, equally important.
The easiest way to do this, would be if you took paper and pencil, and did a sketch of the final image of the tree that you would absolutely be happy with, say, in ten years from now. Then you ask the question: this is where I am trying to get, what's the best and fastest way to get there? The problem is, that many beginners are too shy and afraid to sketch, so that leaves the rest of us guessing as to what is what you are trying to achieve. The result is a lot of conflicting (albeit well-meaning) advice.

Just in a nutshell, when you grow bonsai from a very young material (such as yours), you are simultaneously doing several things at the same time: create root-base, build a powerful trunk, and build branches. With deciduous trees, you do the first two for a decade or so, then start the third one (branches). With conifers, the branch-building starts much earlier, but nebari (root-base) and trunk is still the highest priority. A typical beginner's mistake is to start thinking about pruning branches, before you even have a trunk. Design at this stage is irrelevant. In fact, if your your young tree starts to have "the bonsai look" at this early stage, you are not only slowing down the natural process of creating bonsai, but you are actually gowing down a dead-end street.
Another typical beginner mistake, is to plant this pencil-sized little juniper in a bonsai pot. Trust me when I say this: you will never live to see this tree develop into a decent bonsai in that pot.

So, I am just throwing a few things your way, to think about. Building bonsai is like building a house: you have to break down the process into its basic components: blueprint, foundation, walls, roof, finishing, etc. In bonsai, it's roots, trunk, branches, and overall desingn. You have to separate each, in your mind, and learn the techniques. When you are talking about branch pruning and design, in your initial post, that's like starting your house with the roof, when you have no blueprint, no foundation, and no walls. It's a very common mistake, though, I am not holding it against you.

I am just trying to be practical here, and cut through all the emotional roller-coaster that has been going on for eleven pages in this thread. I hope this helps... (back to work for me, I need to drive from Downtown to Woodland Hills shortly, to my second company

All the best and good luck

(and Go Kings!!!)

This is indeed all very, very helpful, and insightful, and I thank you for your response.

I'm sure I made many mistakes yesterday and will make many more in the future. Again, perhaps in my haste to DO, I overcommitted. There is every chance. But here's something that I've learned from talking to people (novices and professionals alike), reading books, and combing the Internet: there seems to be very little consensus and a whole lot of personal opinion. It's a very tough thing to wade through when you're trying to learn a new art, and I know from my background in other arts and practices that this will always be the case.

In this case, I chose to side with one train of practice. This train concurs with yours in small part and diverges in large part. Which one is "right" make take years to show itself; if I chose wrong, it might also only take months or weeks. If that's the case and everything I've done has been wrong, I'll have learned, and I'll have learned well, and that will absolutely impact my next efforts. Again, I chose the course of action I did because I wanted to act, and perhaps that is totally counterintuitive to practical bonsai application. If all that I end up with here are some very cool, tiny little trees, I will live with that. Everything else will just be absorbed into my ever-expanding knowledge base.

Sorry to hear about the trek from Dowtown to Woodland Hills. That is anything but a picnic.

 

[goosetown]

Those trees with minimal foliage are often very old, or mimicking very old and battered trees (years of abuse by mother nature). It will be hard to do something like that with the tree you started with, and I have never really seen a young small juniper that pulls off that looks without a really unique trunk. Those trees still have a significant amount of foliage on them, it's just that they are usually much larger trees, with foliage pads in a select area. The tree you have now will need a lot of time to grow out and put out some growth to fill in the gaps.
I absolutely suck at photoshop, but will try to do something with a picture of your tree.

Very much appreciated. And time I've got, so NOW the waiting game is something I'm looking forward to.