Diving In Feet First

[Attila Soos]

That this thread isn't already locked is a mystery.

"Lock the building, fire everybody!"

Not so fast, my friend. This is democracy in action. There will be mud-fights, and there will be sweet reconciliation. That's life.

 

[Attila Soos]

This is indeed all very, very helpful, and insightful, and I thank you for your response.

I'm sure I made many mistakes yesterday and will make many more in the future. Again, perhaps in my haste to DO, I overcommitted. There is every chance. But here's something that I've learned from talking to people (novices and professionals alike), reading books, and combing the Internet: there seems to be very little consensus and a whole lot of personal opinion. It's a very tough thing to wade through when you're trying to learn a new art....

Thanks, and no problem.

The great thing about bonsai, is that in spite of all the opinions and talk, the results will show whether or not one was right or wrong. All the talk in the world will not change the results, and everybody will be able to see it.
There are two kind of people: the hopeless ones (that will eventually drop out), and those who make mistakes, and learn quickly from them (by admitting their mistakes to themselves). If you belong to the second group, you don't care about being right or wrong. You care about how your trees improve year after year.

In 17 years of doing bonsai, I've learned that although there are may different ways of doing things, there is always one way that is the best way, and until you find out the best way, you are always wasting time and effort. When it takes 10 miles to go straight from point A to point B, you don't want to drive 50 miles to get across. As puzzling as it may seem, many people do, by sticking to their original ideas. They just hate to admit their mistakes, and spend their time "saving face".

 

[milehigh_7]

"Lock the building, fire everybody!"

Not so fast, my friend. This is democracy in action. There will be mud-fights, and there will be sweet reconciliation. That's life.

The cool thing is, I have found the members here to be particularly forgiving. Trust me that is a good thing.

OH BTW, my name and a link to my FB are in my signature and have been the whole time. ;-)

 

[goosetown]

Thanks, and no problem.

The great thing about bonsai, is that in spite of all the opinions and talk, the results will show whether or not one was right or wrong. All the talk in the world will not change the results, and everybody will be able to see it.
There are two kind of people: the hopeless ones (that will eventually drop out), and those who make mistakes, and learn quickly from them (by admitting their mistakes to themselves). If you belong to the second group, you don't care about being right or wrong. You care about how your trees improve year after year.

In 17 years of doing bonsai, I've learned that although there are may different ways of doing things, there is always one way that is the best way, and until you find out the best way, you are always wasting time and effort. When it takes 10 miles to go straight from point A to point B, you don't want to drive 50 miles to get across. But many people do.

Don't think it could have been said better. Again, thank you for your observations and insight.

I do want to ask a specific question about something you said about repotting. You had said something along the lines that repotting a tiny juniper into a bonsai pot was going down a dead-end. Were you talking about the shimpaku? If that's the case, I wanted to ask about something. The container it was being grown in was skinnier but taller and of very closely the same volume as the pot it was ultimately placed in. If this was a mistake, where SHOULD I have put it, as it clearly couldn't have stayed in its container for much longer? If this repotting doesn't work I'll obviously want to know for next time.

Thanks so much!

 

[Danilo]

Don't think it could have been said better. Again, thank you for your observations and insight.

I do want to ask a specific question about something you said about repotting. You had said something along the lines that repotting a tiny juniper into a bonsai pot was going down a dead-end. Were you talking about the shimpaku? If that's the case, I wanted to ask about something. The container it was being grown in was skinnier but taller and of very closely the same volume as the pot it was ultimately placed in. If this was a mistake, where SHOULD I have put it, as it clearly couldn't have stayed in its container for much longer? If this repotting doesn't work I'll obviously want to know for next time.

Thanks so much!

The smaller the pot, the slower the tree will grow. If you had placed it in a pot larger/deeper than the one it came from, it would allow for more root, in more space (like placing a tree in the ground does). The more root there is, the more growth the tree will want, and that will speed up the thickening of the trunk, the growth being put out etc...
Taking a small tree and putting it in a small pot will yield you a small tree.
I learned from a few folks to ignore a bonsai pot until I have a tree that I can be happy with. I grow everything now in the largest pot that I have space for, and will work on them there until it is where I kind of want it to be (nothing I have now).

 

[milehigh_7]

Given that the ground is not an option for you, here is what it should be in IMHO.


http://www.google.com/products/cata...=X&ei=XXLGT_WIFbOA2AXA-PGxAQ&ved=0CLEBEPMCMAI

 

[Attila Soos]

I do want to ask a specific question about something you said about repotting. You had said something along the lines that repotting a tiny juniper into a bonsai pot was going down a dead-end. Were you talking about the shimpaku? If that's the case, I wanted to ask about something. The container it was being grown in was skinnier but taller and of very closely the same volume as the pot it was ultimately placed in. If this was a mistake, where SHOULD I have put it, as it clearly couldn't have stayed in its container for much longer? If this repotting doesn't work I'll obviously want to know for next time.

The "dead-end" was referring to mistakes that are so big, that one actually has to start all over again after wasting several years for nothing. I've done those mistakes, because when I started, in the early nineties, there was no Internet that I knew of, and I had very little guidance.
In the case of the bonsai pot, that is not exactly a dead-end: but it will slow you down to such an extent that it could take you 15 years what it would take you only 7 or 8 of you do the right thing. In many cases, though, using a bonsai pot may lead to the death of the tree, because the beginners have a very hard time growing a healthy root-ball in a small container.

Danilo is right,
A small pot will slow down the develompent of a tree exponentially. But this advice has to be qualified: there IS such a thing as a pot that is TOO LARGE for the tree as well. Especially when we grow conifers. A pot that is too large, can lead to soggy soil that never has a chance to get on the dry side. IN THE CASE OF CONIFERS, YOU NEED A SOIL THAT GETS FAIRLY DRY, BEFORE THE NEXT WATERING. Not bone-dry, but "on the dry side". This is vitally important, if you want a healthy and fast-growing conifer. Having a "wet feet" will consideralby slow the growth. and may lead to death.

So, you need a pot that alows lots of room for growth, but with a medium that is light and airy. I find that those Italian clay flower-pots sold at Orchard Hardware do a perfect job: the low-fired clay allows for the medium to "breathe", and they allow a lot of growing space. Plus, they look nicer than some of the plastic nursery pots. However, plastic pots are also good, if you keep in mind that they keep the soil moist a little longer.

A one-gallon clay pot (or nursery pot) for your tree would be perfect.

P.S.: MileHigh's idea is also very good, just watch for the hot summers when those pots can dry out faster. As I said, being dry-ish is good, but not bone-dry.

 

[goosetown]

The smaller the pot, the slower the tree will grow. If you had placed it in a pot larger/deeper than the one it came from, it would allow for more root, in more space (like placing a tree in the ground does). The more root there is, the more growth the tree will want, and that will speed up the thickening of the trunk, the growth being put out etc...
Taking a small tree and putting it in a small pot will yield you a small tree.
I learned from a few folks to ignore a bonsai pot until I have a tree that I can be happy with. I grow everything now in the largest pot that I have space for, and will work on them there until it is where I kind of want it to be (nothing I have now).

This is a perfect point about what's so frustrating in soliciting subjective opinions - there are lots and lots and lots of them out there, and like most things, they can be incredibly contradictory. And I'm not saying YOU'RE being frustrating, Danilo - quite the contrary, and I appreciate the thought you've put into this - but just that there is this information, and then there's information that speaks to the opposite.

The plan is to keep it in this particular pot not for a long time, but for 2-3 years. The plant has a VERY small rootball and, ideally, shouldn't be entrapped by the pot in that amount of time. Then it will be moved to a larger pot where the roots can continue to grow and the tree can further develop and, hopefully, keep growing as well. Now I've had a lot of people tell me, "Whoa whoa whoa - small pot, small tree." And I've had just as many people tell me that if you plan carefully and act appropriately, there's no reason the tree can't grow in a potted progression.

WILL it? I have no idea. This time, I picked a course of action. If it works, it works. If not, I learn from it and I try another way next time. I have a feeling that, like most things, there are many means to an end. Now it's just a process of finding which works best.

 

[Attila Soos]

Given that the ground is not an option for you, here is what it should be in IMHO.
View attachment 23899

http://www.google.com/products/cata...=X&ei=XXLGT_WIFbOA2AXA-PGxAQ&ved=0CLEBEPMCMAI

I love those pond-baskets, I use them myself.

Sometimes I use them when growing some species in the ground that are sensitive to root-disturbance when dug out (Cedars and rare/exotic species that I can't afford to lose). I just lift them out after a few years, and they don't miss a beat.

 

[milehigh_7]

In those pots I water 2-4 times per day during summer. Mind you that is in 115F + with 4% humidity and 30+mph winds. I also only give morning sun to mine (under shade cloth the rest of the day) but elsewhere in the country you should be fine with more. I have a crab apple that has been doing just fine in such a setup for 4 years now.

Here is some more knowledge regarding pots:
http://www.evergreengardenworks.com/earthpot.htm

 

[Attila Soos]

The plan is to keep it in this particular pot not for a long time, but for 2-3 years. The plant has a VERY small rootball and, ideally, shouldn't be entrapped by the pot in that amount of time.

That's exactly what I did, when I started. After 3 years of going nowhere, and the trees gradually deteriorating, I decided that it was time to drop the experiment, put those pots away, and plant the trees in larger nursery pots. For some trees, it was too late, they died. For other trees, I just wasted 3 years (I HATE to waste one hour, never mind 3 years!), but I've learned something. Ever since, I have a very hard and fast rule:
Rule #1: never plant the tree in a bonsai pot, until it is "almost finished". I would never break rule#1 unless being under gun point. I learned the hard way.

 

[Attila Soos]

In those pots I water 2-4 times per day during summer. Mind you that is in 115F + with 4% humidity and 30+mph winds. I also only give morning sun to mine (under shade cloth the rest of the day) but elsewhere in the country you should be fine with more. I have a crab apple that has been doing just fine in such a setup for 4 years now.

I know, in your case, it's even harder, because of the heat.
With nursery pots, I can get away watering once a day, or once every two days. I need all the time savings I can get, since I have hundreds of trees and little time.

Rule#2: You can grow bonsai in ANY medium, as long as you adjust your watering schedule accordingly.

 

[Attila Soos]

Here is an article about re-potting and bonsai soil, from my all-time favorite bonsai website:

http://peterteabonsai.wordpress.com/2012/05/15/repotting-a-beast/

It's a very long article, but awsome tree and advice... Every single bonsai enthusiast should have Peter's website on his Favorites list. It's the best site, period.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

from my all-time favorite bonsai website

I think Attila meant to say his SECOND all-time favorite bonsai web site

 

[Attila Soos]

I think Attila meant to say his SECOND all-time favorite bonsai web site

Yep, I stand corrected.

 

[TheSteve]

A bonsai pot is the last thing you should give a tree. You've trimmed it down quite a ways and it will need to regrow a lot of foliage if it's going to be strong enough to fight of the pests and diseases you won't be aware of until they own your tree. If it were me, next spring in march-ish, I'd repot into a "grow out" pot like mentioned above, be it a nursery container or pond basket or whatever, I've used colanders, drilled holes in plastic bowls, hard rubber concrete mixing trays, anderson flats, build wooden boxes, blah blah blah. As long as there's drainage then size is all that matters (go ahead and bring it on that comment guys).

It's had enough for this year though, I'd try to keep it in some indirect sunlight light and don't fertilize until you start to see the lighter green (not yellow-green) new growth. It will be a lime-ish color, If you start seeing yellow or greenish yellow sickly looking growth then other measures may have to be taken.

 

[TheSteve]

This is an older rocky mountain juniper I've had for about four years I think. maybe three. Anyway, It had a very small root system when I got it and I put it into a larger pot (2 x3 foot concrete mixing tub) full of drain holes. I mixed something up for soil that I'd used before without problem on other trees, including junipers. It must have gotten too much organics in it. This tree went fine for a bit then started to slowly die. I tried everything in my power for years to control watering, sun exposure, fertilizer etc. and it just kept wasting away. Finally this year I put it back into the ground, within a month there has been up to 2" of foliage extension on various branches.

This tells me that it was my soil. Was too heavy, too acidic, something or other but I didn't want to repot and set it back... Instead I lost a major branch that probably predates the birth of my grandparents...


This is why people try to stress on things, and this is why it never hurts to listen just in case you may need it later, What works for a common juniper may not work for Shimpaku or rocky mountain. Or it might. In this case it didn't....

PS, This wasn't an attempt to beat the dead horse about your soil, it was more of a confession about not admitting I had screwed up until the damage was done (like Atilla was saying)... And I've been doing bonsai for a day or two...