California Juniper finally ready for show

I'm on phone so I started another reply for the second half. I am all for education from a teacher. I think from a learning perspective it's the way to go. I look at someone like Ryan whom I knew prior to Japan. He came home and is taught and there is no question on a tree that he produces from Oregon bonsai. He has struck out on his own and is an artist. Teaching others along the way. I have no problem with that. I just think it kinda cool to buy the education if that's what you want and then apply it to your own collection. That's just me, there are those that wish to subsidize someone else's living and that's ok too. But here's the rub, bonsai is a pissing contest and if you project publicly just how good you think you are, some are gonna want to see the proof. Proof is good once and a while.
 
...bonsai is a pissing contest...
Only if you make it a pissing contest. Unfortunately there does seem to be a fair bit of that going on

and if you project publicly just how good you think you are, some are gonna want to see the proof. Proof is good once and a while.
Proof of what, though? Is it more impressive to take a $5 home depot tree and turn it into a mediocre bonsai all by yourself, or take a $1000 piece of material and turn it into a spectacular bonsai with assistance and guidance from someone like Boon? What exactly is everyone supposed to be proving? And who do they have to prove it to?
 
I just want to add to anyone with an ear to hear. You're right with your resources and your participation in workshops and the beautiful bonsai this process has gained you but when the cards are down do you really believe in yourself? Can you work on a really good piece of material without suffering the doubt that you can do it right. I think it is time all of you become all you can be. I think it is time you started to believe in yourselves.
 
Now, that's FUNNY! Thanks for giving me a good laugh today.

Go have some fun, Vance. ;)
I think in the end you may be laughing at yourself. Do you think I like all of you guys hating my guts? I would rather have fellowship with you.
 
do you really believe in yourself? Can you work on a really good piece of material without suffering the doubt that you can do it right. I think it is time all of you become all you can be.

I can't speak for others, but I've observed 2 things to this point.

1. In my experience personally working with Michael Hagedorn & Boon, they don't just show you how to make better bonsai, they TEACH you. In a weekend with Michael or Boon I work on 2-4 trees, and then I take that knowledge that I've learned and apply it to the rest of my collection. They never do something without explaining why they did it, and so over time you begin to think like them. The more you are around them, the more you learn to approach a tree like they would when you're on your own. In other words, they teach us to fish rather than just giving us fish.

2. In my experience observing other students of Boon and Michael, they are more confident in their bonsai skills than any other bonsai enthusiasts I know. Most students of Boon that I know teach others, look at John Kirby, Eric Schrader, The Smiths, etc. etc. etc. It's because they've been properly taught how to do bonsai, they've mastered the basic techniques as taught by an experienced professional. Sometimes we have in our heads that bonsai is all about the artistry of fancy techniques, but in Post-Dated Michael writes that:

“The practice of bonsai is not the accumulation and mastery of fancy difficult techniques- which are used infrequently at most- but proper application of basic care like watering and fertilizing, the timing of shoot pruning, and training our eyes to see balance and beauty, which are used for every bonsai.”

Boon and Michael have from day one taught me the mastery of basic techniques and to see and create balance and beauty in the material I'm working on. There are some clients of them that don't do any work on their trees, but from my experience the majority of Boon and Michael students do, and their trees prove that!

Andrew
 
Good for you Andrew, I am happy you are happy.

When is the last time you started a tree and did everything without one of these guys guiding you through the process? Can you post a picture of that tree? Seriously do you have a tree of that nature? I get this story when I have asked this question in the past: Well none of my stuff is ready for show but I know what I am doing and it will be. This my friend, is a crock of you-know-what. Some of this stuff has to be done, you cannot simply absorb it through exposure and then----- believe you can walk on water because your teacher can.

I ask this because I have run into one or two students who make similar claims to the point they are absolutely convinced their poop don't stink and yours does, just because they happen to be a student of one of these guys. One guy that used to be around here a lot not too long ago, after ten years study and intensives, and investing in a really expensive Black Pine that I understand died still has only one sorry little Black Pine but he is quick to tell you how you are doing it wrong.
 
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Vance,

I've started several trees on my own and have been growing them without help from my teachers, although I apply the instruction they teach to all my material. Don't have access to those pictures right now (I'm at work, nor do they belong on Eric's thread), but I can PM you later with them!

This is quite a helpful writing from Hagedorn on the subject:

"Since taking part in the Bonsai Intensive I have come to view bonsai as a highly technical activity. It is grounded in technical knowledge, like architecture or medicine. The better we know these fundamentals, the better we can use them to do something creative. I started in bonsai with the notion that it is primarily a creative endeavor. It is not. It is primarily technical. The longer we retain the notion it is firstly creative, the greater the chances we will neglect to study its details. When that happens, we are using crooked arrows to shoot at moving targets.

By this I mean that the work of the serious student, in any field that is complex and demanding and full of details, is to gather a full quiver of skills. To skip this means that one is 'creating' while one is trying to invent how to do it. But many people have already invented that part—it's the quiver that contains the entire "craft" of the tradition. One needs to learn it from those who know, and those people are part of a collective."

This quote was taken from this website: http://www.bonsaiboon.com/pages/intensives-article.html

Hope that helps for now,
Andrew
 
I would like to see those pictures, thank you.

You wrote the following: By this I mean that the work of the serious student, in any field that is complex and demanding and full of details, is to gather a full quiver of skills. To skip this means that one is 'creating' while one is trying to invent how to do it. But many people have already invented that part—it's the quiver that contains the entire "craft" of the tradition. One needs to learn it from those who know, and those people are part of a collective." These are disturbing words I hope they are just your understanding of what is happening and not a parroting of the way they "The collective" think and teach.

You also wrote this: "Since taking part in the Bonsai Intensive I have come to view bonsai as a highly technical activity. It is grounded in technical knowledge, like architecture or medicine. The better we know these fundamentals, the better we can use them to do something creative. I started in bonsai with the notion that it is primarily a creative endeavor. It is not. It is primarily technical. The longer we retain the notion it is firstly creative, the greater the chances we will neglect to study its details. When that happens, we are using crooked arrows to shoot at moving targets.

Though much of what is said here is true I have seen the results of what happens when someone comes from the point of view that it is all technical. We had an individual in our club years ago that was very technically minded, he could wire a tree like no one I have ever seen but his artistic skills were horrible. Without the art all of that technical garbage is just technical garbage.

I believe you can learn the technical skills but art is acquired over much study of design and asthetics.
 
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Ahem... really none of this belongs on Eric's thread. Hope he doesn't mind everyone pooping all over his thread about his very nice tree.

It's a gorgeous tree! Thanks for posting it Eric, it has certainly produced some interesting discussion!

If you haven't already, check out Eric's amazing blog! He's a former Boon student that is doing some amazing things, and growing great trees on his own!

http://www.phutu.com

Andrew
 
Spectacular transformation. Not meaning to complain about it----but it is too bad you don't have the between pictures so we could see how it developed. Just so those wo would like to give me discredit for sending this post down the trail. This is post #8 and it's mine. It's a spectacular tree.
 
Post # 10 Mine:

I laughed at my response. I saw the first photo and thought "what a loser" and then I saw the second one and was amazed at the transformation. Kudos to you for seeing the finished tree in the intial material.
This is probably the response the majority had about this tree. It just goes to show you that you shouldn't limit yourself, or abandon a good trunk. After all, what was there about this tree? The trunk! There were no branches, there was no visable bonsai hidding just around the corner, there was just a trunk and an idea and the willingness to pursue that idea, graft and craft.

Vance Wood, Feb 13, 2012Report
#11Reply
 
Post #26 Eric Wrote: I had Matt Reel restyle this Juniper for me recently. Couldn't be happier with the result. Here's a before and after shot of the tree, first November 2014 before work:

Post #27 I wrote: The tree is gorgeous, no doubt about it. Is there any reason you could not have achieved this image by your own labors? I think your Black Pine demonstrates your prowess on its own.
 
Post #48 by Adair: There is "much ado" about who styles a tree, and should someone have a pro style trees for them.

A "styling" only lasts a short time, maybe a year, before it is grown out and needs to be revisited

This is where the slide into the abys started and it was not me that started it as much as some of you would like to blame me for another flame war. This one is given to you by the pen of our own Adair.
 
The tree is gorgeous, no doubt about it. Is there any reason you could not have achieved this image by your own labors? I think your Black Pine demonstrates your prowess on its own.

Post #48 by Adair: There is "much ado" about who styles a tree, and should someone have a pro style trees for them.

A "styling" only lasts a short time, maybe a year, before it is grown out and needs to be revisited

This is where the slide into the abys started and it was not me that started it as much as some of you would like to blame me for another flame war. This one is given to you by the pen of our own Adair.

Can't make this stuff up. Seriously. Unbelievable.

So Vance, in your world you get to throw the first barb - subtle as it was - and yet no one is allowed to respond? As I said...can't make this stuff up.

Thanks for pointing it out, though, for anyone who may have lost track.
 
I didn't throw a barb at anyone I simply asked Eric, after seeing what he did with his JBP which is beautiful, why he flet another could improve on his tree and his work. It was a simple question you ought to go back and read it. But you seem to understand what you want to understand and believe what you want to believe.

Now----get off my ass or start showing some trees that you have styled by yourself. If you and a couple of others would spend as much time doing bonsai as you do trying to discredit me we would all be better off. I think Eric is a great artist--or at least I did. At any rate it was not me draging his work through the mud.
 
I would nominate this as the point of derailment.

Is there any reason you could not have achieved this image by your own labors?

Although I'm quite sure "get off my ass or start showing some trees that you have styled by yourself" will probably bring calm back to the thread.
 
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