California Juniper finally ready for show

[klosi]

Off topic:
It's a beautifull tree. Amazing transformation. The tree almost looked dead. I can't even imagine how this grafting took place, it's a shame there are now pics, it would be very instructive. I congratulate you!

PS Oh, this was not off topic.

 

[Kandoloh]

I dunno who boon is...

 

[michaelj]

Because he didn't post pictures at all. All Vance and the rest of us asked to see pictures of the mediocre trees. Since you are so upset I imagine you are probably the one who bought those.

Your imagination is as bad as Vance's bullshit detector.

 

[JoeR]

This argument is absolutely pointless and it detracts from the OP's tree - whos tree was that again?

But since its here anyways I may as well participate.

I dont think it was a matter of whether he could have styled the tree himself but more of he wanted a second opinion. I think it is good to get a sceond pair of eyes on the tree to maybe pickup something that you are oblivious to or are so used to you dont pay attention to anymore.

Vance didnt throw a barb at anyone. He brought up a good point with a genuine question. Even if he did its between Vance and the OP.

 

[Adair M]

Sell myself short because I freely admit I'm a Boon student?

I don't pretend to have invented any bonsai techniques. Or discover any.

I share what I've learned.

As to whether one bonsai master is better than another: find someone you like. Like 'em, stick with 'em. Don't like 'em, try someone else.

I've met some Ryan students. They've learned a lot from him, and that's cool.

 

[M. Frary]

Your imagination is as bad as Vance's bullshit detector.

At least I have one.

 

[rockm]

Because he didn't post pictures at all. All Vance and the rest of us asked to see pictures of the mediocre trees. Since you are so upset I imagine you are probably the one who bought those.
Since I'm here I may as well add (as if no one knew) I'm with Vance and Al on developing your own trees. I have none I didn't start from raw stock. Nursery or collected from the wild. None are show worthy. Yet. Some will be some won't but they are all mine. I know them from root to apex like no one else ever will. I also am starting some elms from scratch. Those will more than likely be my favorite trees because I raised them from nothing to something.
On the other hand I can see the lure of getting a tree that only needs wire to make it beautiful. Having the opportunity to be able to buy something that close to done and calling it mine just wouldn't be the same though. Someone else already did all of the hard work. Actually it isn't that hard if you have the patience and know what you are doing. My trees are a collaboration of my 3 favorite guys. Me,myself and I. Together we may rule the world if we play our cards right.
Pretty confident right? You better believe it! My Great Grandmother who raised me had a saying:"What one man can do another man can do." That means I have the ability in me to be able to do what anyone else can do if I put my mind to it. I taught myself guitar. Played in a band that earned money. Opened for Power man 5000 and Static X at Harpos music theater in Detroit Michigan.
Knowing this and having confidence in myself tells me I will have excellent bonsai. The best. If I felt I couldn't build one from scratch I probably wouldn't be in this hobby.
It is one thing to build something from nothing and another to finish someone else's work. The pride of accomplishment is greater doing it yourself.

And rightly so. If you do everything,you've earned it. If you get a tree that is already mostly done and pay someone to style it for you are you doing bonsai? Is it yours?
This fall I am getting a magnificent finished tree. The gentleman offered to give it to me for shipping costs. He will get more than that. I will show it.
The card will read:
Owner: Michael Frary
Developed by: The guy I got it from.
I will be proud to own it for sure. I will cherish it always. It will stay with me till I die. It is going to be mine. And his. If that makes sense to anyone. It will always be his tree too. He built it and no one can ever take that away from him.

I have been loathe to post on this thread, but here goes. Arguing that people have no "real" bonsai if they haven't developed it themselves is simply the flip side of those who believe themselves superior because they're using an instructor. Both are true, both are untrue.

And for beginners, the thought that you will be completely satisfied with all of those trees you've developed yourself from the time you started is silly. Believe me. I've been there. All of the uncorrected mistakes and even some of the corrected mistakes stare back at you for decades. You will most likely begin to see all the stupid stuff you did (hopefully) about ten years in. You will then try to correct the uncorrectable, making an even bigger mess than before and waste another ten years. I've seen this "dammit, it's MY tree and love it because it's MY tree" attitude in clubs. Same people working the same poor material and making the same mistakes over and over and over because DAMMIT, IT's MY TREE.
They stick their fingers in their ears when someone SUGGESTS they may be wrong or their tree may look, well, kiiinda off. They get insulted and then feel free to insult others' efforts as inauthentic and mostly worthless arguing because anyone with any skill or talent is developing everything they have from scratch.
The "do it yourself" attitude is great and can produce great trees and it CAN be satisfying.
Similarly, taking classes, using better stock initially developed by someone else can ALSO be as satisfying. Being a snob because you haven't bought "someone else's" tree is as bad as being a snob because you've bought a high-priced trophy tree.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Well-put rockm. Thank you.

 

[rockm]

I've tried to restrain myself from saying much in this argument, because I've learned that I can learn from many different sources, as well as rely on my own instincts.

I was long ago humbled by bonsai's ability to make a fool out of you. What you predict with your first trees will make you laugh or cringe ten years from now. I've taught myself that talent is nice, patience and the ability to listen are much more valuable. I've learned that ego comes in many different forms and can cripple your ability to learn much of anything. Ego deafens you to the obvious--like the simple fact that sometimes people with MORE talent and patience and possibly less ego can teach quite a lot of things.

For God's sake, if you've never worked with a professional bonsaist, or worked with something other than the trees you've grubbed out of the woods, give it a shot. Not doing either and criticizing those that do is just plain foolish. You may be surprised at what you learn. You may also confirm that you are the bonsai prodigy you thought you were. Either way, you will gain some knowledge. BTW, some bonsai professionals are bad as Vance will probably scream, but MOST are not. Most of the dozen or so I've run across over the years have been excellent. Only one or two were simple hucksters or fools (One of those fools believed they could do great bonsai simply by following their "talent," without listening to anyone else. Their work showed it too...)

 

[ABCarve]

Bonsai is a collaboration....always. It is not,...... only if you grew it from seed, made the pot, made the stand, painted the scroll, dug the soil, made the tools, extruded the wire, etc.

 

[Vance Wood]

That's NOT your big problem. Anger, disrespect and projection are much bigger problems. And I hate to break it to you, but your bullshit detector sucks. You confuse doubting everything people say with having a bullshit detector. They ain't one and the same. Asking, of someone who had offered four cheap little beginner trees for sale, "if it really ever existed at all" betrays the tendency of your overactive bullshit detector to register false positives as if it got a jumbo cookie for every wrong accusation. Who would lie about having four mediocre starter trees? I mean, it's theoretically possible, but it's highly unlikely. But you toss that accusation out, why? Because he didn't post pictures for you to ridicule? Why in the hell would he have wanted to do that? He was just tossing an idea out, to see if anyone might be interested in contacting him to get photos of his trees and explore the possibility of working out a cheap deal. It's not all that dubious a proposal. Yet, I half expected you to end that post with "zachkent29, if that's even your real screen name..." The next time you feel compelled to call out someone's bullshit, or put something bluntly to them, go chill out, or have a smoke or a drink, and come back and seriously consider whether you're making the forum a better place by hitting the "post reply" button. It'll make people happier. Maybe even you.

In all of this and all of the times I have had to face this kind of thing I have never once resorted to calling people names or impugning their reputations.

 

[Vance Wood]

Bonsai is a collaboration....always. It is not,...... only if you grew it from seed, made the pot, made the stand, painted the scroll, dug the soil, made the tools, extruded the wire, etc.

Holy crap. You can't possibly believe what you just wrote.

 

[michaelj]

In all of this and all of the times I have had to face this kind of thing I have never once resorted to calling people names or impugning their reputations.

I don't really recall whether you called people names or not (you just call their trees shit or crap or their attitudes shit or crap and stuff like that, which isn't much better), but impugning people's reputations? You do that literally every few posts, Vance. You will call people out as liars just because you are uncertain as to whether they are correct. I'm pretty sure everyone except you and Frary sees this. And you did it in the very quote that you were just quoting. Questioning whether someone flat out lied about even having the trees they were offering for sale is an abundantly clear attack on their character and veracity and it impugned his reputation. It was totally uncalled for and totally inexcusable.

 

[M. Frary]

You forgot sun,rain and fertilizer.
The tree grew from the uses

Frary

Hey! I resemble that remark!

 

[Vance Wood]

I don't really recall whether you called people names or not (you just call their trees shit or crap or their attitudes shit or crap and stuff like that, which isn't much better), but impugning people's reputations? You do that literally every few posts, Vance. You will call people out as liars just because you are uncertain as to whether they are correct. I'm pretty sure everyone except you and Frary sees this. And you did it in the very quote that you were just quoting. Questioning whether someone flat out lied about even having the trees they were offering for sale is an abundantly clear attack on their character and veracity and it impugned his reputation. It was totally uncalled for and totally inexcusable.

Holy smoke man. Go back and reread your post. Why are you so angry. I never ever at any time call anyone's trees crap, out side of my own. As to lying about trees? I have been around this forum for many years and have seen people come along here and boast this and boast that and in the end have nothing. That's a fact. I assume the individual you are talking about is the same individual who was selling four trees, without showing pictures of the trees. He impugned his own reputation by not putting up pictures and the so called buyer who did the same who could have responded in his defense. He/she obviously frequents here.

I don't believe you are stupid but I believe you are agenda driven. This individual posts to sell trees without providing photos. Individual claims to have sent images by email. Individual claims the trees were sold, when he feels himself cornered. How would anyone who allegedly bought these trees know the trees were even available if they did not frequent this forum? AND why do you even care so much about this to get in my face. I am not the only or first individual to claim this entire thing a fraud. As to your other alegations how about cut and past examples?

 

[ABCarve]

Holy crap. You can't possibly believe what you just wrote.

Judging from your statement, you believe bonsai is a collaboration?

 

[Vance Wood]

You are correct I mis read your post. I agree that bonsai is not a collaboration. In the midst of having to dodge and weave around every body who can type on a key board or text while driving that had me in their sites, I did not read your post carefully enough. I apologize. On first reading I took your statements to mean you thought that bonsai was a collaborate effort.

 

[ABCarve]

You are correct I mis read your post. I agree that bonsai is not a collaboration. In the midst of having to dodge and weave around every body who can type on a key board or text while driving that had me in their sites, I did not read your post carefully enough. I apologize. On first reading I took your statements to mean you thought that bonsai was a collaborate effort.

???????

 

[Giga]

Why is it, I come to enjoy some trees and how they got it there, and all I see is bickery and how people need to put their labels on things? Trees can live hundred of year and be in multiple generations, why do we feel the need to voice such petty things to a thing of beauty, that is a living thing and deserves respect and not, "I did this so, I'm better then you". When your dust in the ground, do you really think the tree cares how it can to be? Americans fail this aspect of bonsai so bad, and as I'm learning( I'm not perfect) I feel the Japanese get this aspect of respect so much better then us.

 

[Vance Wood]

Bonsai is a collaboration....always. It is not,...... only if you grew it from seed, made the pot, made the stand, painted the scroll, dug the soil, made the tools, extruded the wire, etc.

Appearently we cannot get this right between us. I agree bonsai is not a collaboration.