California Juniper finally ready for show

[Vance Wood]

I would nominate this as the point of derailment.



Although I'm quite sure "get off my ass or start showing some trees that you have styled by yourself" will probably bring calm back to the thread.

Oh I am sure it wont. But when you get pissed off you get pissed off, and I am tired of taking the hit for something as unsignificant as that was. In fact it could had led to a really good discussion about when and why you sometime need advise or at least input from other sources.

 

[coh]

I didn't throw a barb at anyone I simply asked Eric, after seeing what he did with his JBP which is beautiful, why he flet another could improve on his tree and his work. It was a simple question you ought to go back and read it. But you seem to understand what you want to understand and believe what you want to believe.

I've been watching you do the same thing for the 4 or 5 years that I've been participating in this forum. You poke, jab, barb, then cry "woe is me" when people respond in kind. It's as predictable as the rising and setting sun.

Now----get off my ass or start showing some trees that you have styled by yourself. If you and a couple of others would spend as much time doing bonsai as you do trying to discredit me we would all be better off. I think Eric is a great artist--or at least I did. At any rate it was not me draging his work through the mud.

I will get off your ass because there's really nothing more I can say. Your words on this forum pretty much say it all.

As for posting trees I've styled - I'll post what I want, when I want. But thanks for your concern!

Sorry Eric...your tree and the transformation over time are both stunning!

 

[barrosinc]

 

[Smoke]

I can't speak for others, but I've observed 2 things to this point.

1. In my experience personally working with Michael Hagedorn & Boon, they don't just show you how to make better bonsai, they TEACH you. In a weekend with Michael or Boon I work on 2-4 trees, and then I take that knowledge that I've learned and apply it to the rest of my collection. They never do something without explaining why they did it, and so over time you begin to think like them. The more you are around them, the more you learn to approach a tree like they would when you're on your own. In other words, they teach us to fish rather than just giving us fish.

2. In my experience observing other students of Boon and Michael, they are more confident in their bonsai skills than any other bonsai enthusiasts I know. Most students of Boon that I know teach others, look at John Kirby, Eric Schrader, The Smiths, etc. etc. etc. It's because they've been properly taught how to do bonsai, they've mastered the basic techniques as taught by an experienced professional. Sometimes we have in our heads that bonsai is all about the artistry of fancy techniques, but in Post-Dated Michael writes that:

“The practice of bonsai is not the accumulation and mastery of fancy difficult techniques- which are used infrequently at most- but proper application of basic care like watering and fertilizing, the timing of shoot pruning, and training our eyes to see balance and beauty, which are used for every bonsai.”

Boon and Michael have from day one taught me the mastery of basic techniques and to see and create balance and beauty in the material I'm working on. There are some clients of them that don't do any work on their trees, but from my experience the majority of Boon and Michael students do, and their trees prove that!

Andrew

Andrew,
Your not exactly on the same page as the rest of us, at least not me since I have seemed to open the conversation some. The original question posed by Vance was why Eric, a long time student of Boon, found it necessary to have someone else style his tree? This does not have anything to do with people learning from qualified teachers. This has to do with why have someone make your tree? If you have some experience in that area of paying people to make your trees then you could add to the conversation in that way. BTW, the OP has not given any of his thoughts on this since the thread has tangenized.*

For the record, when did the book "Post Dated" become the bible of American Bonsai? All of this can be read in my new book; "Why don't people read all the words"

* gone off on a tangent

 

[Vance Wood]

Eric: I never meant anything negative toward you or your tree. I was simply looking for a discussion. Apparently according to certain members of this forum this was a forbidden subject. If I offended you I am truly sorry it was not my intention.

 

[Adair M]

Vance, I met Eric last January at Boon's and saw the tree in question, and indeed it is a fabulous tree. Eric is a very talented bonsai artist, and has many trees in development. And grows from seed.

He is a member of Boon's club, Bay Island Bonsai, and has the opportunity to spend time with many professionals thru the club.

The "Bonsai Scene" in the Bay Area is very different than where you and I live. I suspect the Portland, OR area is also more active. There are more bonsai nurseries, artists, practioniers, etc. folks tend to corroborate on their trees.

I've been at workshops there, someone will bring in a tree, and everyone will gather 'round to discuss potential fronts, angles, branches, etc. I helped repot some yamadori Sierra Junipers that someone brought in.

It's not about the ego. It's about the trees.

So, Eric has a friend, Matt Reel, who has studied for several years in Japan as a bonsai apprentice. And Eric has Matt work on his tree. Why is this a problem?

 

[Smoke]

The "Bonsai Scene" in the Bay Area is very different than where you and I live. I suspect the Portland, OR area is also more active. There are more bonsai nurseries, artists, practioniers, etc. folks tend to corroborate on their trees.

You mean collaborate?

Also could you name some of the nurseries in the SF area I know I would be interested.

 

[Vance Wood]

I never said it was a problem. You my friend are the one that blew this thing up into ----- I don't even know what you would call this. Then the bonsai pit bull Andrew got hold of it and it has been down hill since. It seems that every time I mention something even remotely akin to the question of provenance someone gets their nickers in a bunch. This was not my intention. Again, Eric; I am truly sorry this happened. As Smoke defines it; collaboration. Collaboration is different than doing someone's home work if you get what I mean.

 

[Smoke]

It's not about the ego. It's about the trees.

Why do you study with Boon?

Why Boon?

Why the need to be the best you can be?

Why the need to display your tree in a Boon exhibit?

Why fly half way across America to study with someone in California, are there not people closer, or is there some sort of badge of honor to be an SOB?

Its not about ego, your dilusional? Every post you make and mention Boon is ego. Every post you make in the name of helping someone and passing off Boon technique is ego. Come on get in the real world. I'm not that stupid. You come here and post because Study Group is all Boon and you can add nothing, preaching to the choir as it were. Here you get to flex your ego. That's pretty transparent.

 

[Smoke]

I never said it was a problem. You my friend are the one that blew this thing up into ----- I don't even know what you would call this. Then the bonsai pit bull Andrew got hold of it and it has been down hill since. It seems that every time I mention something even remotely akin to the question of provenance someone gets their nickers in a bunch. This was not my intention. Again, Eric; I am truly sorry this happened. As Smoke defines it; collaboration. Collaboration is different than doing someone's home work if you get what I mean.

Actually when "they" get together there is mostly "corroboration" going on.

 

[Vance Wood]

Actually when "they" get together there is mostly "corroboration" going on.

I wish it was not so. It reminds me of the days when I was in High School when the football team came after me. I have been pissing people off for more years than many have lived. My big problem is a very active bull shit detector. What happened here was not even close to that. I stepped over the line and mentioned the unmentionable. What I said was like dressing up as a ghost at a Black Panther's assembly.

 

[Smoke]

You must care, I don't give a shit if I fit in. That's what makes me special, take it or leave it. Truth hurts sometimes right?

 

[michaelj]

My big problem is a very active bull shit detector.

That's NOT your big problem. Anger, disrespect and projection are much bigger problems. And I hate to break it to you, but your bullshit detector sucks. You confuse doubting everything people say with having a bullshit detector. They ain't one and the same. Asking, of someone who had offered four cheap little beginner trees for sale, "if it really ever existed at all" betrays the tendency of your overactive bullshit detector to register false positives as if it got a jumbo cookie for every wrong accusation. Who would lie about having four mediocre starter trees? I mean, it's theoretically possible, but it's highly unlikely. But you toss that accusation out, why? Because he didn't post pictures for you to ridicule? Why in the hell would he have wanted to do that? He was just tossing an idea out, to see if anyone might be interested in contacting him to get photos of his trees and explore the possibility of working out a cheap deal. It's not all that dubious a proposal. Yet, I half expected you to end that post with "zachkent29, if that's even your real screen name..." The next time you feel compelled to call out someone's bullshit, or put something bluntly to them, go chill out, or have a smoke or a drink, and come back and seriously consider whether you're making the forum a better place by hitting the "post reply" button. It'll make people happier. Maybe even you.

 

[Adair M]

Why do you study with Boon?

Why Boon?

Why the need to be the best you can be?

Why the need to display your tree in a Boon exhibit?

Why fly half way across America to study with someone in California, are there not people closer, or is there some sort of badge of honor to be an SOB?

Its not about ego, your dilusional? Every post you make and mention Boon is ego. Every post you make in the name of helping someone and passing off Boon technique is ego. Come on get in the real world. I'm not that stupid. You come here and post because Study Group is all Boon and you can add nothing, preaching to the choir as it were. Here you get to flex your ego. That's pretty transparent.

Why Boon?

I'll answer that. My favorite tree for bonsai is Japanese Black Pine. Just like yours is Trident Maple. A couple years ago I decided I wanted to up my game. I love JBP, and while my trees were pretty good, they weren't as good as those I'd seen in the Japanese magazines.

So, I heard about Boon from the Bonsai Study Group forum. Bought his JBP DVDs. Learned a lot I didn't know, and the DVDs reinforced some info I did know.

I decided I wanted to go to an Intensive type class. The only two I knew about were Boon, and Ryan Neil. I researched both. From my research, Boon teaches "Classical Japanese" bonsai. With a focus on JBP.

From my research, it appeared that Ryan was working more of the yamadori, doing the Ponderosa Pines, and collected junipers.

Those trees are not really my thing. Don't get me wrong here: they're fabulous. But I don't live where those types of trees grow naturally. We dont have deadwood junipers here.

In fact, I've been doing bonsai on and off for 40 years, and had never seen a California Juniper bonsai until I went to Boon's. They just don't grow here in Georgia.

So, I chose Boon because I felt that I would be able to learn what I wanted to know: JBP.

As for is there anyone here to learn from?

Not really. Rodney Clemons, I suppose. Rodney and I go way back. We started doing bonsai about the same time. He's never apprenticed in Japan.

Bill Valavanis I'm sure has good classes. It would involve as much travel for me to go to Rochester as it would to San Fran. But his climate is not so good for JBP. He prefers Scots pines because of his climate.

So, Boon and his Intensive series of classes appeared to be the best fit for me.

And finally, I'm sorry if I annoy you when I say "Boon says to do this, or that". I'm just an anonymous name on the Internet. I have no credibility. Boon has a good reputation, so if I share a Boon technique, at least people would consider it.

 

[Adair M]

Smoke,

I post here rather than Study Group because this forum is far more active. On BSG, there are more SoBs, so there is less dissension.

You're flat wrong about the ego stuff. I'm not here to brag "I have better bonsai than you". I'm here because I like to help people out with their bonsai.

You guys in California are decades farther along than we are back East when it comes to bonsai.

Nurserys? Grove Way, Gremel's, Lone Pine, Muranaka's... We have nothing close to those.

 

[Smoke]

And finally, I'm sorry if I annoy you when I say "Boon says to do this, or that". I'm just an anonymous name on the Internet. I have no credibility. Boon has a good reputation, so if I share a Boon technique, at least people would consider it.

I understand about the pine thing, Personally I think he is the right choice. There are better though but that's a personal thing . I feel Kenji's pines are far superior to Boons, JMO.

You do understand that you sell yourself short everytime you do that. Thats was Vance's point. You don't need to do that. At some point you will have to put on your big girl panties and start talking for yourself and stop leaning on the Boon crutch. MHO. Half or more of these people you feel you are helping probably don't even know who Boon is and are probably thinking you are making some Hillbilly derogatory remark about someone from Kentucky.

 

[Smoke]

Smoke,

I post here rather than Study Group because this forum is far more active. On BSG, there are more SoBs, so there is less dissension.

You're flat wrong about the ego stuff. I'm not here to brag "I have better bonsai than you". I'm here because I like to help people out with their bonsai.

You guys in California are decades farther along than we are back East when it comes to bonsai.

Nurserys? Grove Way, Gremel's, Lone Pine, Muranaka's... We have nothing close to those.

I think you better look up the definition of ego.
e·go
ˈēɡō/
noun

1. a person's sense of self-esteem or self-importance.
   "a boost to my ego"
   synonyms: self-esteem, self-importance, self-worth, self-respect, self-image, self-confidence
   "the defeat was a bruise to his ego"
   • PSYCHOANALYSIS
     the part of the mind that mediates between the conscious and the unconscious and is responsible for reality testing and a sense of personal identity.

If you don't think any of those fit you then what the Hell you doing here and arguing with me? If I wasn't bruising your ego you would just let it slide and forget it...right?

I'll give you Grove Way. The others are not Bay area nurseries and not public nurseries either. Muranaka is 250 miles the other way. There are actually more nurseries for bonsai in the Sacramento region.

 

[Djtommy]

So if it's about ego, one would want to do everything by himself, even if it means inventing the warm water..

If one works with masters, no doubt he learns how to do things faster, no need to invent the warm water, they tell you how you make it.
So after a while you don't learn ad much anymore. So why stick with a master and even have your treed styled by one sometimes(read sometimes)? Perhaps because its fun?? Like-minded people together sounds like fun no?

People here all tell freely who they work with, who helped style it or even did all the work for them, they don't claim all is their work so why would this be about ego?

I think everybody wants to make better trees, nobody wants tomake chappy trees, do you call that ego? Claiming that you do everything yourself is a show of big ego to me.

 

[M. Frary]

Because he didn't post pictures for you to ridicule?

Because he didn't post pictures at all. All Vance and the rest of us asked to see pictures of the mediocre trees. Since you are so upset I imagine you are probably the one who bought those.
Since I'm here I may as well add (as if no one knew) I'm with Vance and Al on developing your own trees. I have none I didn't start from raw stock. Nursery or collected from the wild. None are show worthy. Yet. Some will be some won't but they are all mine. I know them from root to apex like no one else ever will. I also am starting some elms from scratch. Those will more than likely be my favorite trees because I raised them from nothing to something.
On the other hand I can see the lure of getting a tree that only needs wire to make it beautiful. Having the opportunity to be able to buy something that close to done and calling it mine just wouldn't be the same though. Someone else already did all of the hard work. Actually it isn't that hard if you have the patience and know what you are doing. My trees are a collaboration of my 3 favorite guys. Me,myself and I. Together we may rule the world if we play our cards right.
Pretty confident right? You better believe it! My Great Grandmother who raised me had a saying:"What one man can do another man can do." That means I have the ability in me to be able to do what anyone else can do if I put my mind to it. I taught myself guitar. Played in a band that earned money. Opened for Power man 5000 and Static X at Harpos music theater in Detroit Michigan.
Knowing this and having confidence in myself tells me I will have excellent bonsai. The best. If I felt I couldn't build one from scratch I probably wouldn't be in this hobby.
It is one thing to build something from nothing and another to finish someone else's work. The pride of accomplishment is greater doing it yourself.

Claiming that you do everything yourself is a show of big ego to me.

And rightly so. If you do everything,you've earned it. If you get a tree that is already mostly done and pay someone to style it for you are you doing bonsai? Is it yours?
This fall I am getting a magnificent finished tree. The gentleman offered to give it to me for shipping costs. He will get more than that. I will show it.
The card will read:
Owner: Michael Frary
Developed by: The guy I got it from.
I will be proud to own it for sure. I will cherish it always. It will stay with me till I die. It is going to be mine. And his. If that makes sense to anyone. It will always be his tree too. He built it and no one can ever take that away from him.

 

[M. Frary]

Eric.
Very cool. And thank you for explaining your grafting procedure.
I'm sure where ever you show it you are going to hear oohs and aahs.
Thanks for posting it.
Bring back a ribbon!