California Juniper finally ready for show

[Adair M]

I'm curious as to why everyone has to "demonstrate the ability to do things your own way." If I have the financial resources to pay a master to come to my yard a few times a year to design/style all my trees, what's it to you? Or anyone else for that matter?

Unfortunately, Vance, "one's own way" is not always the best way.

This thread is about Eric's tree. You've complemented him on his ability with Black Pine. So, you know he knows a thing or two about bonsai. But then, you criticize him for having a friend of his style one of his trees. Or, rather, refine a styling of one of his trees. You seem to have a problem with that.

You know, when you have an interest in something, it's fun to be with other people who have a similar interest. If it's something that that takes some skill, it's even more fun to be around those who are better than yourself.

Way back in the day, I played a lot of tennis. I was pretty good, good enough to play on a college team. I had friends who played in the Pro circuit. When I played against them, at first I got blown off the court. But, I learned from the experience, and improved my game. I didn't get better than they were, but I got to be competitive.

Bonsai can be similar. Hang with people who are better than yourself, and your skills will improve.

 

[0soyoung]

I agree with what you are saying, Adair, as:

Hang with people who are better than different from yourself, and your skills and knowledge will improve.

There certainly must be a corrolary that collaboration can lead to greater achievement and another that greater things can also be achieved by having a vision and influencing people. Eric had the vision of what this juniper trunk could become and he employed the collaboration of Boon and Matt Reel to achieve something greater than he likely would have achieved alone.

 

[Adair M]

Osoyoung, I disagree with your crossing out "better than".

Sticking with my tennis analogy:

When my friends would return home from playing on the satellite circuit, their games would be whole quantum leaps better than the rest of us. Because they were playing against better competition.

But after a month or so, they weren't as sharp as they were when they were just off the tour. Their games came down. Sure, we got better playing against them, but there's no question they lost a little "edge" to their game. We couldn't challenge them enough to make them stay super sharp.

Getting back to bonsai: want to make better bonsai? Be around better bonsai and those that create them.

I'm assuming no one wants to make poor bonsai...

 

[The Bonsai Herald]

Getting back to bonsai: want to make better bonsai? Be around better bonsai and those that create them.

Very well said Adair!

Andrew

 

[Smoke]

Getting back to bonsai: want to make better bonsai? Be around better bonsai and those that create them.

I'm assuming no one wants to make poor bonsai...

You said no one, not no team.

I think you are missing Vance's point. While I don't disagree with your theme, I think there are those that want to quantify your experience level. I can't speak for you, but lets take BVF's recent juniper submitted for the artisans. It was owned by a collector (Harry Greer), worked on and improved by Marco Invernizzi. Bought by Brian and recently styled by Bjorn. How much of the tree is Brian? If you had never seen Brians work on anything else and came here and seen this tree posted by Brian, one would assume this is the work of Brian, while Brian has had very little to do with this tree as it is. There are people that see "doing bonsai" as any other art in which the artist is the artist alone and builds a portfolio of his work. We all know damn good and well that nearly all the most famous Renaissance artists and musicians had teachers. No one knows the teacher names nor the work of those famous while under guidance.

No one speaks of Hamano when talking about Kimura, because he has eclipsed his teacher and moved on to become even more famous than his teacher. There is a sort of "legend in your own mind" thing going on here, and I think what is preferred is to show the work you do yourself sometimes, in taking trees to start to finish. I have been going to BIB exhibits probably longer than you been an SOB. I go there and appreciate the trees for what they are, Boon trees. That's not a slight, they are fantastic and I have a hard drive full of pictures of them. Sometimes people want to see what you can do with out the influence of a teacher covering your 6. I can count on one hand the amount of progressions you have here from scratch, and your avatar has one Boon tree on it. Do you have anything you are proud of that's all yours? Maybe something before Boon. Maybe something humanizing the Adair.

There is more to bonsai than having someone style your trees, that's all.

and finally Kepplers Quote of the day,

"as long as you work with a teacher you are a student, it is not until you strike out on your own do you become an artist."

 

[garywood]

AL
You have fundamentally brought the issue to its core! What is this great passion about? Is it about the artist or the tree? No right or wrong, just perspective '-)

 

[The Bonsai Herald]

This is my personal opinion, but when I look at a bonsai I see the tree for what it is. I don't care who styled it or care who waters it everyday. I think there is something special to creating your own trees, but I see no problem in seeking help from others. A good bonsai is a good bonsai, a bad bonsai is a bad bonsai.

If some people want to create their own trees, great! If some people want to seek out professionals to make their trees better, great! I would personally rather have better quality trees that I get help with from a professional that I trust than do everything myself. I'm not a professional bonsai artist, nor do I pretend to be. However, I want to have really good trees, so I seek out help from experts. I've been lucky enough to work with Hagedorn a lot, and now Boon as well, and my trees are better because of it. They don't style my trees for me, they help and teach me do it. It makes me better and refines my skills while giving my trees an expert influence and direction.

Who cares who styled it, I'd rather just appreciate good trees and not think too much about it.



Andrew

 

[Vance Wood]

You said no one, not no team.

I think you are missing Vance's point. While I don't disagree with your theme, I think there are those that want to quantify your experience level. I can't speak for you, but lets take BVF's recent juniper submitted for the artisans. It was owned by a collector (Harry Greer), worked on and improved by Marco Invernizzi. Bought by Brian and recently styled by Bjorn. How much of the tree is Brian? If you had never seen Brians work on anything else and came here and seen this tree posted by Brian, one would assume this is the work of Brian, while Brian has had very little to do with this tree as it is. There are people that see "doing bonsai" as any other art in which the artist is the artist alone and builds a portfolio of his work. We all know damn good and well that nearly all the most famous Renaissance artists and musicians had teachers. No one knows the teacher names nor the work of those famous while under guidance.

No one speaks of Hamano when talking about Kimura, because he has eclipsed his teacher and moved on to become even more famous than his teacher. There is a sort of "legend in your own mind" thing going on here, and I think what is preferred is to show the work you do yourself sometimes, in taking trees to start to finish. I have been going to BIB exhibits probably longer than you been an SOB. I go there and appreciate the trees for what they are, Boon trees. That's not a slight, they are fantastic and I have a hard drive full of pictures of them. Sometimes people want to see what you can do with out the influence of a teacher covering your 6. I can count on one hand the amount of progressions you have here from scratch, and your avatar has one Boon tree on it. Do you have anything you are proud of that's all yours? Maybe something before Boon. Maybe something humanizing the Adair.

There is more to bonsai than having someone style your trees, that's all.

and finally Kepplers Quote of the day,

"as long as you work with a teacher you are a student, it is not until you strike out on your own do you become an artist."

Wow Smoke: If I had said any of this I would have been run out of town on a rail. You are after all correct, that is precisely what I am saying. I don't want to run anyone down or discredit anyone, I just want honest bonsai.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

I just want honest bonsai.

Please define "honest bonsai". Is one of these a more honest bonsai than another? How?

 

[Smoke]

aggh boy..there goes the neighborhood...

 

[coh]

Apparently neither one is an "honest bonsai" unless you can provide an itemized list describing, in detail, who did what work to the tree, and how much has been spent along the way. At least, that's what it sounds like from some of the posts above.

 

[Vance Wood]

To put it real simple so that there is not equivocating, parsing terms, or good old guile: Do what I have done for years now. Put up with having my trees called mediocre and bad, a waste of time and effort. They are none-the-less 100% my trees, my work and my fault.

Post yours, that fall into the same parameter. I know you guys are capable of doing something without help from some outside source. Do you know it?

I understand your limitations are in even looking at raw material from one of those god-awful nurseries, they are after all a Pariah. But; for better or worse, I estimate that more than 50% of those interested in bonsai do not have the luxury to buy expensive pre-bonsai or Yamadori. Many who have gotten into bonsai have left because they cannot afford the material considering that a lot of the first efforts die. No one I know can afford to consider a $100 tree as disposable income more than once. After that it is foolishness. It boils down to bills, food, rent / mortgage, or trees.

 

[Vance Wood]

Apparently neither one is an "honest bonsai" unless you can provide an itemized list describing, in detail, who did what work to the tree, and how much has been spent along the way. At least, that's what it sounds like from some of the posts above.

This is what I am talking about when I list things like ------without equivocating,parsing terms or guile. You know, I know and everybody knows. If you feel like you have to make fraudulant claims about a trees' provenance you are better off saying nothing but you should consider why you are doing bonsai. It does speak volumes about what you truly think of your abilities. Try it you might find the experience worth while and--- God forbid---------fun.

If there is one critical observation I can make today it is this: We have forgotten how to have fun with bonsai. Isn't that why we started in the first place?

 

[coh]

So who is making fraudulent claims about trees here?

I'm sorry, but it sounds to me like nothing more than sour grapes, to be honest. You can't afford to spend money on trees, so you want to bring everyone else down to your level by having them go out and get home depot stock and style it so it can be compared to your trees. Why is that so important that you bring it up every chance you get? Everyone here knows where you've obtained your stock, how long you've worked on it, and that you've done essentially all of the work yourself (from what I gather). No one expects your trees to look like trees that Boon has worked on for decades, or trees that people have spent thousands of dollars on.

This is not supposed to be a competition! Here is my question - are you having fun with bonsai? I know I am!

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

They are none-the-less 100% my trees, my work and my fault.
Post yours, that fall into the same parameter. I know you guys are capable of doing something without help from some outside source. Do you know it?

Sure. That's why I posted my hawthorn; which I found, sawed down, dug up, and grew out every branch you see; within the confines of my back yard. Is that any more "honest" (yours, but probably the wrong word) than owning a bonsai with history before me? No.
So again I ask, why must this be mutually exclusive:

Vance Wood said: ↑
When you (generic you) demonstrate that the only way you can do bonsai is if someone helps you with every thing. At some point you (generic you) have to demonstrate the ability to do things your way and produce trees that are totally your own work.

 

[michaelj]

Osoyoung, I disagree with your crossing out "better than".

I second that. If you want to learn, it's good to see people who do thing differently, to be sure, but for fast skill development, nothing beats hanging out with smarter, better, more talented, more successful people. If you can check your ego and stand being the weak link in such a group, and unless these people are jerks or they carefully conceal how they do what they do, you'll improve your own talents dramatically.

 

[Vance Wood]

So who is making fraudulent claims about trees here?

I'm sorry, but it sounds to me like nothing more than sour grapes, to be honest. You can't afford to spend money on trees, so you want to bring everyone else down to your level by having them go out and get home depot stock and style it so it can be compared to your trees. Why is that so important that you bring it up every chance you get? Everyone here knows where you've obtained your stock, how long you've worked on it, and that you've done essentially all of the work yourself (from what I gather). No one expects your trees to look like trees that Boon has worked on for decades, or trees that people have spent thousands of dollars on.

This is not supposed to be a competition! Here is my question - are you having fun with bonsai? I know I am!

I can't believe you wrote that, you totally miss the point. Sadly I think you miss the point because you choose to miss it, your not stupid, just stubborn. Frankly I don't care how you do bonsai but you should not be telling others how off the mark they are.

 

[michaelj]

If there is one critical observation I can make today it is this: We have forgotten how to have fun with bonsai. Isn't that why we started in the first place?

Perhaps one of the angry naysayers in the forum can help you answer that question. Who should we ask?

 

[coh]

I can't believe you wrote that, you totally miss the point. Sadly I think you miss the point because you choose to miss it, your not stupid, just stubborn. Frankly I don't care how you do bonsai but you should not be telling others how off the mark they are.

Now, that's FUNNY! Thanks for giving me a good laugh today.

Go have some fun, Vance.

 

[Smoke]

I took the first double trunk pyracantha I dug to Kenji Miyata and he worked on it. Not advised, took the pruners from my hand and started whacking branches off. He wired and set branches and it looked real good. It was slick and he took the boar out of it. Took me two years to get it crappy again. I want it crappy, to me that's when it looks best. Rough and more natural with its warty trunk and uros. Now I go to workshops and entertain suggestions but I do the work. If someone asks about any tree I own I can HONESTLY say its mine. Just the way I roll. Good or bad.