yenling83
Omono
Great thread and awesome tree!!!
California Juniper finally ready for show
- Thread starter Eric Schrader
- Start date
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
I have a question about this tree. First off what I am going to ask in no way should be construed to mean I find something wrong with it, how can anyone do that? The tree is beautiful but here is my question: Because it is a California Juniper trunk and life line, does the fact that the folilage is Shimpaku make this still California Juniper or does it now become Shimpaku? Is there a reason for it to be one or the other? To put things in perspective with the rest of the bonsai community if I purchase a Japanese White Pine grafted onto a Japanese Black Pine why is the tree not considered a Japanese Black Pine if I use the same method of thinking as we use on this Juniper, or others like it? I know that the the World will not stop turning due to the responses to this question but it really does, in my opinion, deserve a bit of thought. Is there a reason for this or that, or is it arbitrary, or is it something else?
JudyB
Queen of the Nuts
I agree that it's a fabulous tree, and I'm not questioning anything about it. To me it doesn't matter what it is named, it is a joy to look at.
But...
That's a thought provoking question...
Does the tree become the roots/trunk or the foliage? Does the percentage of mass of each of of the two parts determine which one is the named part? Perhaps the focal point factors into which it is? Or does age trump all?
I know in nursery stock it is never the root stock. But then again, their root stock never shows, or is such a part of the end product.
But...
That's a thought provoking question...
Does the tree become the roots/trunk or the foliage? Does the percentage of mass of each of of the two parts determine which one is the named part? Perhaps the focal point factors into which it is? Or does age trump all?
I know in nursery stock it is never the root stock. But then again, their root stock never shows, or is such a part of the end product.
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
Actually many JWP bonsai the root stock does show. In Yoshimura's original book he shows examples of Japanese White Pine grafted high up in the developed trunks of Japanese Black Pine where White Pine is grafted in at the secondary branch level giving a Japanese Black Pine and branches the appearance of issuing White Pine foliage. He also shows examples of this being done with the Cortacosa, or Cortacata (Thick barked Black Pine) displaying the beautiful trunk with the White Pine foliage, and even examples of Red Pine.
I suspect that it is one of provenience. Being more important and valuable that it is a California Juniper, considering how difficult it is to make a CJ into a really fine bonsai using its own foliage, the tree's value is increased because it is determined to be a California Juniper. In being a Shimpaku the process is not so difficult, and the tree is more an exotic species than a spectacular native. Please don't misunderstand, I am not trying to diminish the value and beauty of this tree or down play the effort and artistry it took to get it here, I have just come across a paradox.
I guess right now I have too much time on my hands. I realize that my curiosity can be a real pain in the butt, I tend to find questions in everything that I sometimes drive people crazy in asking questions about.
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Ang3lfir3
Omono
i think ya'll putting too much effort into it....
we use the species name of the "root stock" because that is what it was when we started.... all you do is change the foliage on it...
same thing with the Sierra and RMJ that we graft shimpaku to.... they are Sierra and RMJ with shimpaku foliage....
it's not rocket science .... lets take a reverse look ...
field grown shimpaku that someone grafts RMJ foliage onto..... is a shimpaku with RMJ foliage... it does not somehow become an RMJ ....
@Vance -- White pine on JBP ... is a propagation technique usually (not always but usually)
FWIW i think the confusion here is coming from the fact that we are using what are usually propagation techniques for a different goal, an artistic one ... nurseries are propagating a scion ... we aren't
we use the species name of the "root stock" because that is what it was when we started.... all you do is change the foliage on it...
same thing with the Sierra and RMJ that we graft shimpaku to.... they are Sierra and RMJ with shimpaku foliage....
it's not rocket science .... lets take a reverse look ...
field grown shimpaku that someone grafts RMJ foliage onto..... is a shimpaku with RMJ foliage... it does not somehow become an RMJ ....
@Vance -- White pine on JBP ... is a propagation technique usually (not always but usually)
FWIW i think the confusion here is coming from the fact that we are using what are usually propagation techniques for a different goal, an artistic one ... nurseries are propagating a scion ... we aren't
Eric Schrader
Chumono
I had Matt Reel restyle this Juniper for me recently. Couldn't be happier with the result. Here's a before and after shot of the tree, first November 2014 before work:
and after Matt styled it:
Cheers,
Eric
and after Matt styled it:
Cheers,
Eric
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
The tree is gorgeous, no doubt about it. Is there any reason you could not have achieved this image by your own labors? I think your Black Pine demonstrates your prowess on its own.
Eric Schrader
Chumono
An interesting question. I think I could have achieved this result, but artistry thrives in an environment where there is inspiration coming from all around. I was actually wiring my little informal upright black pine while he was working on this tree.
I wanted to support Matt as a new professional who is looking for work. I also had twice styled the tree myself and thought it would be interesting to see what someone else did with it.
His pads are smaller than mine would have been, and the foliage was left more dense that I would have left it. The result is a tree that should be put in a show relatively quickly. For maintenance purposes more thinning would have been in order.
Apart from a nicely-styled tree, I got a lot of inspiration from Matt and also had a chance to talk to him at length about his work in Obuse for Suzuki. He's currently traveling around the west coast working; if anyone is interested PM me or look him up on his website.
More to come from last weekend.
Cheers,
Eric
Don Blackmond
Omono
I had Matt Reel restyle this Juniper for me recently. Couldn't be happier with the result. Here's a before and after shot of the tree, first November 2014 before work:
and after Matt styled it:
Cheers,
Eric
That is a fantastic tree. The subtle curve in that trunk line is superb. Simply beautiful.
I would have thinned it more, even if planning to show in the near future (unless there is reason to hide what's in there). I'd also pick a different pot. IMO the tree is far more feminine than the pot and its not a good match. Just my opinion though.
Awesome tree Eric!
Eric Group
Masterpiece
I had Matt Reel restyle this Juniper for me recently. Couldn't be happier with the result. Here's a before and after shot of the tree, first November 2014 before work:
and after Matt styled it:
Cheers,
Eric
Great tree Eric! Let me ask a question if I can... Read back through this thread and I was just wondering- did all of this foliage grow from those two little scions you grafted on like eight years ago?
Eric Schrader
Chumono
Yep, two small scion grafts are all it took. I remember when Boon did the grafts that I didn't quite see what the result might be in my mind. It wasn't until about 4 years later when they had grown out a bit and I was wiring that I was able to see what he had intended. Still, I can't say I envisioned what Matt did to the tree either. I had always figured that it would have a larger rounded crown. But, that's part of the reason I like to work with professionals - sometimes even though I have a good idea for a tree, there is another possibility or a more subtle one.
To Don's comments:
The pot it's in is a growing pot. For show, I'd likely put it back into the antique container that it was in during the 2012 BIB show. And I agree on the foliage thinning. There are no structural problems here to hide, so seeing a bit more of the branching in the crown might be worthwhile. Still, opinions vary and Matt wanted to leave it as full as it is now.
Thanks for all the kind words, and I'm glad you guys can enjoy the tree.
barrosinc
Masterpiece
Awesome tree, off to Oregon!
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j evans
Omono
A good example of what hard work can produce. An amazing tree. It is fun to see what you have taken and made into something that is beautiful. Congratulations & Good Job!
Jamie
Jamie
JudyB
Queen of the Nuts
Looking forward to seeing it in it's show pot and how it looks currently. 
Eric Schrader
Chumono
I'd post photos, but that would remove the last of the mystery about the final display. I'm considering constructing a new stand for the display specifically. Thanks for your kind compliments.
barrosinc
Masterpiece
I love this tree! Never had posted on this thread but saw the jin tip on top of the foliage of your cryptic blog post and knew exactly what it was...
I have been looking out for a hedge san josé (pretty much the only juniper for sale here), to graft shimpaku on to it... and make something like this. It still amazed me that only two grafts are all this tree has.
I have been looking out for a hedge san josé (pretty much the only juniper for sale here), to graft shimpaku on to it... and make something like this. It still amazed me that only two grafts are all this tree has.
Vin
Imperial Masterpiece
Here's a question I've wondered about for some time now. If you have a grafted maple, we call it xxx variety based on the foliage. However, why are grafted junipers more often referred to by the ungrafted original plant? i.e. California juniper instead of Kishu shimpaku.
Smoke
Ignore-Amus
I guess I have to provide the photo here....This was at BIB in January, this photo was on my blog in January. 
