Paradox
Marine Bonsologist
Did you do the pruning yet Brian? I would be very interested to see what you do when you do that.
Zuisho White Pine
- Thread starter Brian Van Fleet
- Start date
Did you do the pruning yet Brian? I would be very interested to see what you do when you do that.
aml1014
Masterpiece
Since I read this I've been tirelessly searching the net to find out what this plan is and can't find a thing. Would you mind explain how this "whole life in a pot" plan is approached? It would be very appreciated.
Bill Valavanis tends to grow his trees in pots, rather than growing them in the ground. This gives him better control over the nebari.
There is also the theory that they develop aged looking bark faster when grown in a pot.
Kimura, if he wants to develop the bark, will shade it. He noticed that trees in the ground have rougher bark on the north (the shaded) side than the other sides. So, he will turn a tree to shade one side if he wants that side rougher. Or, construct something to shade the entire trunk.
So, since Bill growers his tree in pots, he rotates them. So, all sides of the trunk gets shade from time to time. Thus, rougher trunks.
There is also the theory that they develop aged looking bark faster when grown in a pot.
Kimura, if he wants to develop the bark, will shade it. He noticed that trees in the ground have rougher bark on the north (the shaded) side than the other sides. So, he will turn a tree to shade one side if he wants that side rougher. Or, construct something to shade the entire trunk.
So, since Bill growers his tree in pots, he rotates them. So, all sides of the trunk gets shade from time to time. Thus, rougher trunks.
Txhorticulture
Chumono
I think it just refers to never planting it out to get larger. The plant is propagated and grown in containers it's whole life.
I think the aged bark look froM container growing thing is interesting. If I had to guess I'd think the opposite would be true.
0soyoung
Imperial Masterpiece
Why?
Txhorticulture
Chumono
If the trunk thickens faster in the ground (most people think it does) then it stands to reason it would 'grow up' faster.
Plus when I go to the nursery and look at container trees they usually don't have mature bark, but a tree of the same caliper in the woods behind my house does. I realize the wild tree might be older but still.
if
Why would a pot create mature bark faster? And again I don't know either way .
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
Because a tree in the ground is stretching out the exterior of the tree where as the tree in the pot is adding what growth there is beneath the older growth causing it to split and fissure.
barrosinc
Masterpiece
Boom! Mic drop.
Txhorticulture
Chumono
Really? OK that settles it. All perfectly clear now. I'm not even sure that explanation makes any sense.
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
Watch your pines if you have one long enough to watch it age. Trunks do not develop as much girth in a pot but they continue to grow even the bark layer on the outside of the tree. In the ground a lot of the old bark tends to sluff off or be blown off or knocked off because it has little in the way of basal support. As the trunk continues to thicken substantially the new bark seldom gets a foot hold and therefore does not stick around. I see this all the time in Mugo Pines. You can actually see the layers in the flaky bark that has not been rubbed off.
The bark only starts to adhere when the tree reaches a point where the trunk is not developing so rapidly. Can I prove any of this? NOPE; but I have the evidence of watching hundreds of Pines in various stages of development, young, old,collected, grown from seed, cuttings and nursery trees----for 46 years.
The bark only starts to adhere when the tree reaches a point where the trunk is not developing so rapidly. Can I prove any of this? NOPE; but I have the evidence of watching hundreds of Pines in various stages of development, young, old,collected, grown from seed, cuttings and nursery trees----for 46 years.
Txhorticulture
Chumono
Like I said I dont know the answer either way. Here it sounds like you're saying mature bark forms or s ta rts to form bUT falls off when the trunk increases caliper quickly. This I am a little skeptical of because you would see it form.
And if slow growing old plants are getting mature bark faster then our bonsai should all be doing great bark wise. Because the bonsai pot and root work slow them so much.
My thinking, and it is just that, me thinking, is that in general plants will show mature bark with age and container or field grown isn't a very important variable. BUT I've been wrong before and will be again.
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
You do see it forming but you don't notice. It is like I said if you have or have had any Pines and watched them develop over years you should have noticed these little flaky things that show up on the trunk gut they are easily broken off. This is the bark I speak of. If the trunk forces quick expansion these flakes will be flaked off or will not develop at all. How many Pines do you have and what kind and for how long???
Txhorticulture
Chumono
Don't know why we are suddenly measuring our uhhh pines. All trees make bark right? But Ok mostly pinion pines. Oldest one almost 20 years old, 4 feet tall. I bought it as a container plant seed grown 7 years old at the time and I've had it about 10 years I'd say. Whole life in a pot still shows immature bark.
Can't really compare it to a native tree in the ground unfortunately, it's pinus johannis, a mexican endemic grows in sierra Madre oriental 6000 to 9000 ft above sea level.
I still think trees 'bark up' as they add size the vascular layers under the bark grow out stretching the bark I ll take a picture of a maple I have out back that shows this, then to protect the CambiuM layer the tree grows more cells in the bark layer. Over time they add up so to speak and make mature looking bark. Again I dont know for sure one way or another.
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
You cannot compare Maples with Pines in this comparison.
You have one Pinion Pine currently, that you have for ten years and now it is 17. I have 59 small Mugo and 25 small Scots and 12 Larger Mugos 3+ gallons and I have had this number of container grown pines for many years. I currently have 10 to 12 finished Mugos that I have had from 1972. I have five or six that I have been working on since 1994. I have the evidence of my eyes.
You have one tree that you may have been able to make some comparisons over 10 years if you had thought about making those comparisons. You have your books but who in writing those books would even have cared about this argument, or taken time to take note and document it. A discussion like this is only relevant to those who grow bonsai. Many who grow bonsai will tell you this is true. Many who grow bonsai have come to this conclusion independently of each other, it isn't a matter of many parroting the conclusions of another.
The issue of bark became important to me a number of years ago when people were telling me that Mugos were not capable of producing decent bark in a decent amount of time ---if ever. This was not based on fact but; the many voicing the wrong conclusions of a few, who did not know what they were talking about. It was at this point I started making my personal observations about the nature of bark in a closed environment.
You have one Pinion Pine currently, that you have for ten years and now it is 17. I have 59 small Mugo and 25 small Scots and 12 Larger Mugos 3+ gallons and I have had this number of container grown pines for many years. I currently have 10 to 12 finished Mugos that I have had from 1972. I have five or six that I have been working on since 1994. I have the evidence of my eyes.
You have one tree that you may have been able to make some comparisons over 10 years if you had thought about making those comparisons. You have your books but who in writing those books would even have cared about this argument, or taken time to take note and document it. A discussion like this is only relevant to those who grow bonsai. Many who grow bonsai will tell you this is true. Many who grow bonsai have come to this conclusion independently of each other, it isn't a matter of many parroting the conclusions of another.
The issue of bark became important to me a number of years ago when people were telling me that Mugos were not capable of producing decent bark in a decent amount of time ---if ever. This was not based on fact but; the many voicing the wrong conclusions of a few, who did not know what they were talking about. It was at this point I started making my personal observations about the nature of bark in a closed environment.
cmeg1
Imperial Masterpiece
I've seen aged bark develope quicker on potted trees when compared to ground grown trees.I believe it was at Meehans Miniatures on coreana hornbeams.The ground specimens were much bigger but the bark was completely different and not as mature looking as trees a fraction of the size and growing in small pots.
I have heard this all over the place and have come to except it as fact.
I have heard this all over the place and have come to except it as fact.
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
You have to realize that the books were not written for the likes of us who do bonsai. We are, after all, a cultural and horticultural back water void of any horticultural contributions the general horticultural community deems worthy of paying attention to.
Txhorticulture
Chumono
Probably better to make a specific thread. I doubt most people interested in this guy's zushio white pine are interested in a theoretical discussio n n about bark on container trees vs field grown trees.
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
Brian is more than capable of telling us to take a hike off the Zuisho thread.
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
I noticed the underside of a 6 in branch, a linden, had old ass looking bark, while the top was very very young looking.
I think there was ice hanging on it, so I thought maybe that was why, water, Ice, ......shade! Huh. Maybe!
Tx. I'm ok with all the arguments you start with these Michigan fellers, but that was rude!
@Brian Van Fleet. How bout an update? I will go to previous page to check for one now. Amidst the chatter!
Sorce
I think there was ice hanging on it, so I thought maybe that was why, water, Ice, ......shade! Huh. Maybe!
Yes.
He does have a name.
Tx. I'm ok with all the arguments you start with these Michigan fellers, but that was rude!
@Brian Van Fleet. How bout an update? I will go to previous page to check for one now. Amidst the chatter!
Sorce
Brian Van Fleet
Pretty Fly for a Bonsai Guy
2015 end of the year update with a better camera...
