Princess persimmon - going for big bucks...

Indeed seems like a hot plant right now. They are quite beautiful in winter with their tiny orange fruit against the light grey bark. There are varieties within D. rhombifolia that have fruit that looks like cherry tomatoes in color and shape. There are others like mine that have slightly larger and more elongated fruit which I prefer but does not seem to be as prolific. I also have a male tree that flowers heavily in spring.

In my experience they take well to wiring although they look best when designed in what I call "free form" style. Below is a photo of when it was displayed at the Winter Silhouette Expo in Kannapolis in 2017 and a summer pic in full leaf where you can see the fruit forming.



Yes that is a very nice one, congrats on it setting fruit again! I'm looking for a male for pollination purposes now.
 
Male-Female what's going on?

The genus Diospyros has about 200 species, the majority are sub-tropical to fully tropical. The genus Diospyros includes all true persimmons and all true ebony species. As a generalization ALL species generally are dioecious, meaning each tree produces imperfect flowers, that are only one gender or the other. So because a tree will only make either male or female flowers you generally need one of each. This is true whether you are talking about the culinary Japanese persimmon - kaki, or talking abou Ceylonese Ebony.

HOWEVER - The segregation is not perfect. There are occasional mistakes. So if you plant 1000 seedlings and flower them out, more than 99% will be either all male, or all female. But occasionally, at the rate of maybe 1 in 1000 will have one of two mistakes in them. Occasionally there is the clone that will have both male and female flowers on the same tree. Often it is mostly female with just a few male flowers. This is the case with Diospyros virginiana 'Meader', a self fruitful American persimmon.

The second mistake is that occasionally a female tree will flower, and if the flower does not get pollinated, the flower will still go ahead and make a fruit. The fruit will then be seedless. In the case of the culinary Japanese persimmon, Diospyros kaki, this is how you get those big persimmon fruit in the market that have no seed. The ability to produce seedless fruit if not pollinated is not a common mutation, but because D. kaki has been cultivated for fruit for at least 4000 years or more, there has been plenty of time to select and propagate only those clones of D, kaki that will make seedless fruit when no pollinator is around. Note, all these females that will produce seedless fruit if no male is around, will make fruit with seed if a male pollinator is present.

So there are 2 different natural mechanisms to get fruit without having a separate male tree. One is have a clone that produces both male and female, and the other is to have a clone that produces seedless fruit when no pollinator is around.
These mechanisms occur in all Diospyros species, but only the cultivated ones have they been selected for and become common.

Diospyros rhombifolia - Princess persimmon, - hardy at most to zone 7, I would protect from temperatures below +10 F or --12 C. They prefer bright shade. I have heard some females that produce seedless fruit have been identified in Japan. Most or all that are currently in USA need both male and female to produce fruit.

Diospyros virginiana - American persimmon - reliably hardy through zone 6, -10 F or - 23 C. Likes more sun than princess persimmon, part shade to full sun. Has rough square block, deeply fissured bark with maturity. Will fruit in as little as 7 years from seed. One clone 'Meader' has been identified as producing mostly female flowers with an occasional male flower, so somewhat self fertile. My information may not be correct but I believe the cultivar 'Yates' has shown it can produce seedless fruit if no male is present. Otherwise the vast majority of named clones and un-named seedlings need a separate male pollinator.

Diospyros kaki - Japanese persimmon, the culinary persimmon for commercial fruit. Because of the 4000 years of being bred and selected for a food crop, many clones, vast majority of clones that are named will produce seedless fruit if no male pollinator is present. So in general, if you purchase a grafted, named D. kaki, it will produce seedless fruit with no male present. Most are only hardy through zone 7. If a male is present, it will make fruit with seed.

Diospyros texana - Texas or Mexican persimmon - small black fruit, shrub similar to Princess persimmon except fruit is black. Native to middle and southern parts of Texas, south into Mexico. Fairly uncommon in cultivation. Definitely worth growing if you find Princess persimmon too expensive to get a hold of.

Diospyros digyna - Chocolate pudding fruit - a tropical persimmon, with fruit that does indeed taste like pudding, and if you use your imagination, chocolate pudding. Not frost tolerant. Separate male and female trees. Leaves are rather large, but do reduce, plan on larger size for bonsai. Not much in the way of selective breeding has been done, so no clones identified. Need male and female to get fruit.

There are a number of South African Diospyros that have bonsai potential, especially the ''crocodile barked persimmon''. I need to look up species names, my memory fails me here. Need separate male and female trees.

Majority of persimmon will fruit at less than 10 years from seed with good horticulture.
I am wondering if there are several cultivars of Princess Persimmon. The seeds i purchased from a reputable vendor at taikan ten were translated by a bystander as black persimmon. My inability to speak japanese and interpret the label left me with little information. They are three years old now, so some time away from possible fruiting. From the notes above it is like a lottery ticket with respect to results. The only black characteristic i have noted so far is that the leaves turn black in the fall before dropping.
 
Yes that is a very nice one, congrats on it setting fruit again! I'm looking for a male for pollination purposes now.
Judy, I suggest you hit up Julian Adam. I got a few unsexed seedlings that turned out to be males. I also got a couple females from him.
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There is a Black Princess Persimmon cultivar. I saw the original plant in Japan. What is sold in Japan are fruit of Princess Persimmons, many different varieties. If you want the same exact cultivar it must be propagated by cutting, graft, air layer, root cutting or division, NOT by seed. You don't have any guarantee of what you get as they all come up different. Perhaps, "probably" there may be a great number of seedling similar to the original plant.

In NOVEMBER, at the Nippon Bonsai Taikan Exhibition I purchased fruit. Cleaned them in my hotel bathroom to remove the orange pulp. Well, now its mid JANUARY, and a couple of my finger nails are STILL orange colored. Yes, I did clean.....ORANGE THUMB.JPG
 
@River's Edge
I'm pretty sure the majority of princess persimmon we see in the USA are from seed, which means each and every one of them is a different cultivar. I know females that set fruit easily, and have nicely shaped fruit will be propagated by cuttings. As mentioned by several through this thread, there is a pretty wide range of fruit shape, and fruit color. I doubt that any have fruit that turn black like the texas persimmon, but I just plain don't know for sure. I do suspect, your ''black persimmon'' was referred to as black for the color of the autumn leaves, because yellow is the normal color. I bought an orchid that was called ''blue'' only to realize later, it was the slightly blue-ish tint in the leaves that the gentleman was referring to, he spoke Vietnamese, and I did not have someone who could translate nearby.

But I feel confident that there is a pretty wide genetic variation of seedlings of Princess Persimmon in the USA because of seed being regularly brought in from both Japan and China.
 
The Black Princess Persimmon is named for the fruit.
Julian Adams wrote a comprehensive article, with photos in International BONSAI, 2016/NO. 4 issue.
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Thank you so much. I am excited to look forward to the results. Currently i have 18 seedlings from the original packet of 24 seeds. Likely quite a bit of variation in the group. At the end of last season they ranged from 10-16 inches in height roughly up to 3/8 inch diameter trunk on the thickest. I have done some preliminary wiring for movement. Truly little sticks in 1 gal pots at this point.
 
Diospyros rhombifolia - Princess persimmon, - hardy at most to zone 7, I would protect from temperatures below +10 F or --12 C. They prefer bright shade. I have heard some females that produce seedless fruit have been identified in Japan. Most or all that are currently in USA need both male and female to produce fruit.

@MACH5 I could be misremembering but I thought yours produced seedless fruit, which would make it even more special than it already is. Maybe you don’t need males after all?
 
if the flower does not get pollinated, the flower will still go ahead and make a fruit. The fruit will then be seedless. In the case of the culinary Japanese persimmon, Diospyros kaki, this is how you get those big persimmon fruit in the market that have no seed.
I am pretty sure that this can be made to happen through judicious application of gibberellin.
 
@MACH5 I could be misremembering but I thought yours produced seedless fruit, which would make it even more special than it already is. Maybe you don’t need males after all?


Bri, most fruits on mine are seedless but I do have the occasional ones with seed. Perhaps I may not need the male plant? But after one year that the tree only produced one fruit to going up to 8 fully developed persimmons the next year with the male does makes me wonder.
 
The one I bought from the .99 auction was a root cutting. I emailed Julian about a male, waiting to hear back. Anyone else have seedling males?
 
The one I bought from the .99 auction was a root cutting. I emailed Julian about a male, waiting to hear back. Anyone else have seedling males?
How old does the seedling have to be for flowers to appear? My sucker is 4 and no signs of flowers.
 
Don't think mine will be old enough to flower, but I'll let you know if it does.
 
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