Princess persimmon - going for big bucks...

[MACH5]

My understanding is about four years.

I'd be curious to hear from anyone with cuttings - and if cuttings fruit sooner.

I have one from Bill (not the one I posted above) that I received as a young tree. I would guess it was from a cutting? It is now a good size. No flowers yet and have had it now for about 4 years. The plant looks to be way more than 5 years old. However, it did suffer greatly about three years ago when it was exposed to 20F. As mentioned by @Leo in N E Illinois they DO need protection. Should have research the species more closely at the time. Recuperating quite well now but it took two years to bounce back. So perhaps that's the reason I am not yet getting any flowers.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

For those that can not keep D. rhombifolia at temperatures above 20 F, or - 6 C, the American persimmon, D.virginiana, is normally hardy through zone 5, and the European persimmon, the date-plum, Diospyros lotus is hardy through zone 6, maybe to 5b. Zone 5b would be a minimum of -20 F or - 28 C for the rest of the world. Both of these persimmons have fruit usually less than 2 inches in diameter, which is not too large for medium to larger bonsai. The leaves reduce well, the leaves of D. lotus are slightly larger than D. virginiana. The date-plum is often used as grafting understock for D. kaki. Normally D. virginiana is not used as grafting understock, for reasons I do not know.

From personal experience, D. virginiana in the ground will produce fruit in about 7 years from seed, and will begin to form mature bark by end of growing season 8. Mature bark of D. virginiana is very rough, dark rectangular plates. Quite attractive. Most other persimmons have a pebbled, rough sandpaper texture bark.

 

[ABCarve]

Mine might caliper at 3/8” and has never been pruned. Are they that slow growing for putting on wood?

 

[MACH5]

Mine might caliper at 3/8” and has never been pruned. Are they that slow growing for putting on wood?

@ABCarve if you are referring to princess persimmon (D. Rhombifolia), yes in my experience they are quite slow in thickening. Partly why they go for big bucks for anything that's bigger than pencil size! I cannot speak about other species.

 

[JudyB]

Got in touch with Julian and he does have males, so I'll have one for pollination.

 

[Adair M]

Ok, so I’m at Boon’s and I asked about the Princess Persimmon’s fruiting behavior..

The females WILL make flowers and fruit without a male tree. But, the fruit will be sterile, that is, there will be no seeds. For the fruit to have seeds, there has to be a male tree.

The tree I used for the show had fruit, but there were no seeds, even though there are a few male trees here at Boon’s. Go figure.

 

[R3x]

Ok, so I’m at Boon’s and I asked about the Princess Persimmon’s fruiting behavior..

The females WILL make flowers and fruit without a male tree. But, the fruit will be sterile, that is, there will be no seeds. For the fruit to have seeds, there has to be a male tree.

The tree I used for the show had fruit, but there were no seeds, even though there are a few male trees here at Boon’s. Go figure.

AFAIK this is true only in some cases. Diospyros trees are usually dioecious - meaning there are male and female plants and you need at least one of each to have fruits with seeds inside (male flower pollinating female flowers). However some plants have both male and female flowers and thus are self-pollinating (they are monoecious) resulting in fruits with seeds as well. What you describe is called Parthenocarpy (i.e. virgin fruit) where female plant will develop seedless fruits without being pollinated (we usually see this in form of bananas or pineapples). In rare cases there are plants with 3 kinds of flowers: male, female and bisexual (both). Male flowers pollinate both female and bisexual resulting in 2 different kinds of fruits.

Jonas Dupuich had an article i November regarding Princess Persommon: https://bonsaitonight.com/2018/11/06/how-not-to-propagate-princess-persimmon/

 

[Nybonsai12]

Another one up on the FB auction page for anybody interested. Currently up to $200...

 

[goldfish nut]

I've been reading all the conflicting info here about female princess persimmons requiring a male to develop fruit. From my experience and that of a few other local people that is definitely NOT true. The 1st fruiting princess I ever saw was the only one the guy had. The truth is that an isolated female princess persimmon will quite regularly set fruit but those fruits are seedless and sterile. From my experience with this species it seems that more flowers will set fruit if they are pollinated. I have male and female specimens and my largest female usually sets loads of fruit, whether the plants were out in rain when blooming or not. Oddly only about 50% of fruits have seeds so I must assume that the sterile fruits were from non-pollinated flowers. When grown from seeds my male seedlings almost always flower by their 3rd year, but females seem to take a couple years longer. I have found them pretty heavy feeders and I fertilize them from leafout to late summer with a mix of organic and liquid chemical fertilizers and do not have problems with fruit drop. I hope this helps.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Nice persimmon @goldfish nut. How are they to wire? Branches seem stiff.

 

[goldfish nut]

Nice persimmon @goldfish nut. How are they to wire? Branches seem stiff.

You are correct. Once fully lignified they are very brittle. Sort of like an azalea. But easy when still green. Trick is not to delay. If you obtain a tree with older branches that are not pleasing in arrangement you are kinda stuck, but properly placed guide wires that are very slowly tightened every couple months in growing season can result in some changes if branches not too thick. But putting bends in an older branch to create movement is probably impossible. Healthy well fertilized and watered princess persimmons bud back readily after being pruned so sometimes growing out new secondary branching can work well. as an aside, they do not like to completely dry out and this can lead to fruit and leaf drop.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Thanks for that @goldfish nut. I bought this one as a project tree because it’s trunk had an interesting bend and no reverse taper. It was already wired, but I couldn’t tell if the wires are doing much or if I dared to move the branches. It should make a good Shohin over time. I’ll likely remove the wires and give it another go this summer.

 

[JudyB]

Thanks much @goldfish nut for that information. Will be helpful to me as I develop this little guy... It's sending out shoots from the soil, just like a crabapple would. I really like that tree @Brian Van Fleet
!

 

[namnhi]

Thanks much @goldfish nut for that information. Will be helpful to me as I develop this little guy... It's sending out shoots from the soil, just like a crabapple would. I really like that tree @Brian Van Fleet
!View attachment 231487

I know you are not going to settle with those little rooted cutting. The pale new growths are screaming for sun light are they. Two steps baby...

 

[JudyB]

I know you are not going to settle with those little rooted cutting. The pale new growths are screaming for sun light are they. Two steps baby...

I just got this tree last week, and in the shipping box it started to sprout! It's greening up in the sun as we speak... I do shuffle on nice days like today, but when it's cloudy, they're under the lights now. We still have lots of freezing weather coming our way, so I've got the greenhouse being an actual greenhouse at this point instead of being a cold house.
I do like this little thing, but I also have the clump start to develop into something larger too.

 

[coh]

Thanks much @goldfish nut for that information. Will be helpful to me as I develop this little guy... It's sending out shoots from the soil, just like a crabapple would. I really like that tree @Brian Van Fleet
!View attachment 231487

Cornering the market I see! Definitely need to keep my eyes open for one of these...