Is the current bonsai instructional system broken?

In western Trade apprenticeships, “why” is just as important as “how”. If one of my apprentices asked “why” a neutral is derived from the XO on a transformer, and I told him “because it does, dont worry about it” I would be setting them up for failure.

That might be the difference though, the apprenticeships we have here are almost exclusively trade based (electrician, plumber etc. ) and I dont think they consider bonsai a“trade” per say. More of a master/servant dynamic ie “just do what you are told and shut up”
That’s different. As a professional electrician, a full understanding of electricity, and how to safely wire electrical boxes and such is required knowledge.

It doesn’t mean I have to know all that stuff to USE electricity in my home.

How about this:

Parent: “Don’t stick the screwdriver in the wall socket”.

Child: “Why?”

Parent: “Because it will shock you! “

Does the parent or child need anymore education about electrical wiring and grounds and stuff? No.
 
That’s different. As a professional electrician, a full understanding of electricity, and how to safely wire electrical boxes and such is required knowledge.

It doesn’t mean I have to know all that stuff to USE electricity in my home.

How about this:

Parent: “Don’t stick the screwdriver in the wall socket”.

Child: “Why?”

Parent: “Because it will shock you! “

Does the parent or child need anymore education about electrical wiring and grounds and stuff? No.
Child: “how does that work?”

Parent: “Ummmm.... don’t know, no one ever told me”

Lack of knowledge breeds stupidity breeds lack of knowledge breeds stupidity breeds lack of knowledge etc
 
That’s different. As a professional electrician, a full understanding of electricity, and how to safely wire electrical boxes and such is required knowledge.

It doesn’t mean I have to know all that stuff to USE electricity in my home.

How about this:

Parent: “Don’t stick the screwdriver in the wall socket”.

Child: “Why?”

Parent: “Because it will shock you! “

Does the parent or child need anymore education about electrical wiring and grounds and stuff? No.


If I know how something works I can apply the knowledge to new situations. "Don't stick a screwdriver in the socket" can be extended to "Don't stick a fork in the toaster". If I know how/why something works I'm more likely to retain the knowledge. If I know how/why something works I'm more likely to be able to accurately teach it to someone else.

Not knowing how or why may not be essential in the moment, but it is very limiting.
 
I think you make a fair point when you are talking about the size differences. But, you lost me on this last part?

I'm failing to see what you are trying to say? What would be your ideal model?
My last bit was just addressing that specific comment by Mr. Reich. The logical meaning behind his comment leads one to assume that if his statement were his "preferred" relationship with his client then he will basically only be seeking wealthy clients. He said about it being easier for a client to just bring a pile of trees and leave them for months.

To explain in simple terms, we know that his bonsai experience and space in his garden won't be free to that client. So who normally can afford the time and space in a bonsai artists garden to just leave his trees for months on end? The wealthy. So if having this relationship is what he seeks, then he is only seeking the wealthy. This means if you're wealthy and you can afford months of training in the bonsai artist's space then you get the education.

I've said in previous posts what I think would be helpful. If some org like ABS instead of just being a phone directory would actually create a distribution of professionals so that maybe you don't have to travel so far. Maybe there could be semi annual classes in cities (not only huge ones) at the very least. They could organize pointed, topicked, relevant presentations/classes on a somewhat regular basis that are at least close to population centers. Yes, some really good clubs do that. But if there was a larger org behind it then it wouldn't depend on how good your not so local club might or might not be. Right now if I want to learn something about bonsai I can 1) take my chances with not necessarily verifiable online or book info 2) travel to the nearest nursery at possibly a few hundred bucks each month to sit in workshops 3) pay exorbitant class fees, travel, room and board to try going to the bonsai artist to learn (if you can even get in with the small class sizes). The only one most can afford is also the most questionable.
 
That’s different. As a professional electrician, a full understanding of electricity, and how to safely wire electrical boxes and such is required knowledge.

It doesn’t mean I have to know all that stuff to USE electricity in my home.
Except that the glaring logical fallacy in your statement is that we aren't "using" the bonsai as a product. You analogy to using electricity would actually be analogous to us just looking at bonsai (i.e., using bonsai for it's intended purpose).

We are in fact seeking to PRACTICE bonsai. An accurate analogy would be someone trying to PRACTICE electrical work that isn't a "professional electrician". Would you say that to do electrical work, understanding electricity is not required just because that practitioner isn't an employed "professional"?

How about this:

Parent: “Don’t stick the screwdriver in the wall socket”.

Child: “Why?”

Parent: “Because it will shock you! “

Does the parent or child need anymore education about electrical wiring and grounds and stuff? No.
I think this is your real sentiment, which is that we should be treated like children and accept "Because I said so". But then how exactly does this thinking translate to so many pros having so many differing opinions of what "works"? Without a Master as in Japan if we have 3 experienced people telling us different things, which "Because I said so" should we follow?


By the way, I do not necessarily disagree with your overarching sentiment that many times "why" may not be important based on the simple fact that there are so many things about plants that simply put, no human knows. If there is a solid understanding of "why" then teaching that understanding is good. But there are actually many things that humans simply THINK that they know. So their "why" may be actually flat out wrong. We see this in pretty much every aspect of human society from science, to social science to statistics, etc. Old "why"s are being invalidated constantly.
 
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That’s different. As a professional electrician, a full understanding of electricity, and how to safely wire electrical boxes and such is required knowledge.

It doesn’t mean I have to know all that stuff to USE electricity in my home.

How about this:

Parent: “Don’t stick the screwdriver in the wall socket”.

Child: “Why?”

Parent: “Because it will shock you! “

Does the parent or child need anymore education about electrical wiring and grounds and stuff? No.

Something causing physical injury is a bit different, but it looks like this horse has been beat!
 
I dont like responding on a phone because its a pain, but I feel that my original point is being misconstrued.

I never said you have to know "why" before you know the "how" or vice versa. I never said that teachers have to teach the "why" and the "how" or vice versa. I said that as far as learning goes, it is ideal to learn both and a good teacher either teaches both, or inspires the student to learn both and a good student wants to learn both the how and the why as well or at least entertains a curiosity to learn both.
 
I dont like responding on a phone because its a pain, but I feel that my original point is being misconstrued.

I never said you have to know "why" before you know the "how" or vice versa. I never said that teachers have to teach the "why" and the "how" or vice versa. I said that as far as learning goes, it is ideal to learn both and a good teacher either teaches both, or inspires the student to learn both and a good student wants to learn both the how and the why as well or at least entertains a curiosity to learn both.
Really, you're just saying what Smoke always says. If you're going to do something you should know why you're doing it. Which even Adair advocates. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe he has said before that your goals should direct your actions. That right there is knowing the why.

I think the different aspects of "why" is where the confusion comes from. I think there is miscommunication between "why do I do this" and "why does this happen". Both represent "knowing why" yet they are two different pieces of information. They're two different questions.
 
@PABonsai ,

the wealthy acquire bonsai, but the gardener does the actual
work.
So in China, the Master would be the gardener,
Good Day
Anthony

* It has started down here.
 
I think if you have an understanding of bonsai and what you are about, the Skype thing could be good, especially if it's a teacher you have had experience with and they with you. I would certainly use it if I had no access and was far from any.
I believe some professionals offer Skype session. I believe Bjorn has done some Skype sessions with a club member.
 
Sure, it’s nice to know “the why”. But it’s not necessary! If the goal is to create good bonsai, it is merely enough to know what works.

Student: “Why do this?”

Master: “Because it works.”

Now, as a student, If you know something works, then YOU can research why it works. It’s not necessary to know the why for it to have a positive effect.
I love this @Adair M this is my kind of learning.
You do have to know some “why’s” and those are usually taught but some teachers take it to an extreme.
Bonsai is an art form. A professional painter knows why to use one paper over another because of the result and the action of paint on paper.
They do not need to know the process of how they make the paper to be a great artist.

Teacher: “Does anyone know why?”
40 students: “Silence”
Teacher: “ugh cmon think!”

I only have so much brain capacity.
 
I’m going to start this thread by stating that I’ve spent the last 7 years traveling to teach bonsai in most of America save California, Maine, Iowa, and I think one of the states in New England. So, as part of the system, I’ve had an inside look at things.

My sincere hope for this thread would be that nobody gets into a negative mindset. Constructive criticism is great. I appeared on Bjorn’s series in a parody episode I came up with part of, highlighting the faults in other YouTube bonsai people’s content. Was the lighting great at Kouka-en? Not always. However, it’s what was available to unpaid labor in a foreign land.

So, I think making pro’s ricochet around the continent to hastily style 6-8 (please no more) trees in 4 hours - remember there will be two of these the pro does usually in a day, is not effective use of a worth their salt pro’s time. This is something a talented local could be conned.... I mean encouraged to do. It’s worked in many places.

One final thing and I’ll respond once or so a day to the thread. I don’t think we should stop, just restructure. The Mirai online presence is causing some positive ripple effects. Eisei-en has been for a very long time. Anyway, I hope to hear from those who’ve also given this some thought, and have ideas.

photo for gettin’ attention - I collect it in spring.... Cephalanthus occidentalis
 
Walter Pall discusses how he gave up a career in consulting to pursue his passion in bonsai. He actually threw down some numbers and essentially he used to make more per hour in consulting than an entire day of bonsai workshops. Even for professionals, most shows and clubs pay a very small amount of money. Supply (very few trained professionals) and demand (lots of us want to learn) should push this up, but it hasn't happened yet. I suspect this is because club fees and show fees are still pretty low in order to encourage more people to attend.
Good point.
I had the option of buying for cheap half an hectare (1.2 acres) of agricultural land. Was thinking about growing trunks for bonsai of some rare species. Untill I did the math on the hourly rates I would make. It would be better to start at McD's. Similar for running a bonsai school. Very few people are willing to pay the rates needed to make a class worthwhile, if you include the infrastructure needed. So very few people can actually make a living off bonsai, on direct instruction and trade.

The margins are not there because most people doing something for a hobby are hesitant to pay fair dollar for the assistance of professionals. If I pay 100USD for a day of instruction with a pro, I am told I am spending too much money..
 
For someone like me Bonsai Mirai has been a godsend. I've always kind of been intrigued by bonsai for the beauty of it, but I've never really taken the time to become proficient at it. I was content with working in my landscape. This past year I decided that I'd finally take the dive into bonsai. The biggest hurdle was figuring out where to go for information. I'm not much of a reader, so books couldn't be my main source of information. I do use them for supplemental information and inspiration. No local bonsai clubs. There isn't even a local bonsai shop. It's such a niche hobby.

Someone on Reddit suggested Mirai and I haven't looked back. I've learned more in a year than I had in a decade. A lot of that was my renewed interest in the hobby. Having the content organized and consumable on Mirai was the other part of that. The problem though was that Ryan is heavy on conifers. While they're beautiful I just don't have access to the trees he's working on. Not easy access at least. Luckily the Mirai team has started to work more deciduous material into the streams.

Beyond Mirai it's been difficult to find reliable information. Well, free information at least. I'm told that Bonsai Empire is good as well, but I don't have unlimited funds. Paying for another service doesn't make sense to my wallet. There really just seems to be a lot of varying opinions, so I find it best to find a single source that speaks to my interests and bias and go from there. Right now Mirai is enough for me.

There's definitely no substitute for working with actual material though. It'd probably be awesome to work with a pro, but how much can you gain if you only work with them once? I'd love to see more pros stay put and put on classes that ppl could attend. I've signed up for a Mirai class in 2021. It's expensive (like embarrassingly so) and I have to travel coast to coast in order to attend which only adds to the expense. If there were regional options I'd be able to attend more. That said, Bonsai Learning Center puts on classes that are reasonable and it's less than 4 hours away. I'll be attending classes this year. It would awesome if pros were based at botanical gardens. Ppl that frequent them are already into plants. Understand the client-base and reach out to them while they're already taking the time to appreciate nature. Sadly, no such garden exists around me. Cultural diversity just isn't a thing here.

Last thing I'll say is that the community itself can be toxic which is fascinating. Everyone thinks that they're the Mandalorian and swears that "this is the way". It's rare to find ppl that understand that other ppl either live in other regions of the world or have their own preferences. It even comes down to how ppl build their trees. I'm personally into bonsai for the experimental side of it as well as the challenge of not only keeping plants alive, but thriving as well. I couldn't care less about having "proper taper" and super dope dinner plate nebaris. I'm not building show trees. I'm building trees that I find to be beautiful while giving them the best care that I can. However, we're quick to turn on each other. At lot of times that's just disheartening which leads me to be more reclusive about this. I rarely post on here because of that. I lurk and once the bile starts to spew I move on to the next topic. I don't know what it is about bonsai that makes ppl behave this way, but I suspect this is why some local clubs are intimidating/difficult to join.
Well stated Bentley, I think you speak for many of us trying to gather useful information. One of the first things we, in the Midwest, have to learn is how to keep these trees alive. There has been more recently.
I tried bonsai about 15 years ago and the availability of information was even more scarce. Ryan Neil, I agree, presents information in a very understandable manner. Bases what he is explaining with his years of experience. And is willing to accept new ideas. If you haven't seen it, Ryan's interview of Bill Valvanis is excellent. Thanks for your input.
 
I am told I am spending too much money..
@Walter Pall When I just started out in 2012, I stopped by your house. Upon hearing my nationality you told me that I would not be buying trees in your yard. You were right; Not because of my nationality, but because of me just having started. Now I would buys trees from you. But it stuck with me: The awareness that in a number of countries people are just not willing to pay a fair price for work & material, complaining the tree/yamadori/lessons/demo is too expensive.. (I always say: It is not expensive. It is a lot of money..)
 
Okay, back to @Owen Reich original post.

I am lucky enough to be a member of a very active bonsai society. We have a plethora of classes, & workshops. We have several name teachers on multi-year contracts, where they return for several appearances every year. We also have quite a number of one time appearances by other artists. The club, Milwaukee Bonsai Society, is hosting the ABS / MABA / MBS 50 th Anniversary Exhibit - June 25 to 28, 2020

Basically, I agree with @rockm Bonsai Education now is better than it ever was in my 40 years of trying to learn bonsai.

But there are problems. In the Milwaukee Bonsai Society, we have Beginner's Class, Beginner's Workshop, Bonsai Basics 3 class series, Novice Class, 6 class series, Intermediate Class also a 6 class series, and then we have the visiting artists holding 3 or more study group sessions for the "advanced" students. We also have the odd workshop on top of these classes. The problem is there is no coherence between these classes. What is covered is largely at the discretion of the instructor. There is no prerequisites for the membership prior to enrolling in any of the classes. You could walk in off the street and join the Intermediate Classes, or any of the "Master Classes" meaning the travelling artist lead study groups. Only requirement is you pay your MBS dues.

This is chaos, we have multiple instructors covering the same material over and over, granted each with their own "style". One of our instructors began with John Naka, another began with Ryan Neil, and makes the 3 or 4 trips a year to Ryan's place. We also have a couple SOB's, students of Boon. The result is a noob has plenty of learning opportunities, but no way to make head nor tail of which class to take in which order, or who to go to, in order to learn a specific topic. More than once an advanced group, got held up because of one of the dozen students was a complete novice, and the artist flown in from California ended up spending large amounts of time on basics that any of the seasoned MBS members could have taught, while the advanced students, waited for time on advanced problems. It is also not fair to the artist.

So we did what every group does, we formed a committee, that is going to develop a bonsai education curriculum. The intent is to bring coherence and a syllabus for each level of education. AND make the info available to the members. So they can look up what each offering covers, and the suggested sequence for taking the classes, workshops & whatever. Now this idea is not new, many clubs have some version of a curriculum on line, we have already begun plagiarizing from the websites of Phoenix Society, Houston, Portland, and have begun getting input from Peter Tea, Ted Matson, and the rest of the regular artists that regularly tour through Milwaukee.

One idea we are kicking around is some sort of specific competency teaching. Like getting a course in Wiring, or Grafting, or ? One thought was something like Boy Scout Merit Badges, you need a competency in say 5 or 10 areas to qualify for taking an advanced class. Of course, we don't want the concept to be a childish or as patronizing as the connotations one gets hearing the term "Boy Scouts".

Or must have taken a beginner's series and an intermediate series before taking advanced visiting artists.

Problem is, we are a group of volunteers. None of us have unlimited time. Also, we are all adults, well mostly adults, we do have a few teenagers. We regularly have members join who have extensive experience from living somewhere else. How do you rank each member's experience without being viewed as condescending or patronizing.

Don't have the answers yet. This project is low priority until after the June MABA Convention. Anyone reading this should plan on coming up to Milwaukee for the June 25 to 28, 2020 MABA / MBS 50th Anniversary Celebration. We will have many good vendors too.
 
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