Is the current bonsai instructional system broken?

[Adair M]

You just described the Japanese biz model. Except there they don’t teach the customers unless they want to be involved at the high end level. There are newbs butchering rough stock in Japan too . There are also lots of shitty trees there. They just don’t show them to anyone on the Intl level.

The clients basically treat the truly great bonsai as living art pieces, but they are passed on like fine art. Auctions, appraisals, dealers, agents, translators, etc. The market ebbs and flows. Kimura’s work is big this year. Now Ebihara’s maples are released from a major private collection.... It just like Southerby’s, but broken down by quality tiers. There are local lower quality bonsai tree and bonsai pot auctions all over Japan.

Boon tells stories of his apprenticeship days... He wasn’t given any instruction, or at least not much. He was expected to learn by doing. If he messed up, he heard about it!

But, to learn wiring, he went out into the garden and looked at the trees there. And figured out how it was done.

I do the same. Even though I’ve been taught by Boon, I’m still open to learning. I recently had Tyler Sherrard style one of my trees. And I’ve closely examined his work. And while I’m pretty good at wiring, he’s at a whole ‘nuther level!

Look at this:



Anyone see anything remarkable about that?

He’s managed to anchor the thin wire to the heavier wire so that it acts as a single unit. Would I have Come up with that? I don’t think so! But, I’ll add that technique to my bag of tricks!

It’s things like that you can learn from closely observing the work of a pro. You’ll never see anything like that in a book or video.

 

[chansen]

He’s managed to anchor the thin wire to the heavier wire so that it acts as a single unit. Would I have Come up with that? I don’t think so! But, I’ll add that technique to my bag of tricks!

It’s things like that you can learn from closely observing the work of a pro. You’ll never see anything like that in a book or video.

Matt Reel taught me the same thing. Super cool little trick.

 

[Adair M]

Matt and Tyler both studied under Shinji Suzuki.

 

[M. Frary]

With Tanuki balls on your chin

Worst bonsai position to find yourself in.
Tanuki balls leave splinters.

 

[M. Frary]

Student: “Why do this?”

Master: “Because it works

If I'm asking,I want to know.
If I get that answer he's gone.
Tells me he either doesn't have patience to convey the answer or simply doesn't know either.
Either way it would be the last session.

 

[M. Frary]

by doing

Best 3 words in the whole thread.
Learn By Doing!
Not listening.
Not watching.

 

[Owen Reich]

Sure, it’s nice to know “the why”. But it’s not necessary! If the goal is to create good bonsai, it is merely enough to know what works.

Student: “Why do this?”

Master: “Because it works.”

Now, as a student, If you know something works, then YOU can research why it works. It’s not necessary to know the why for it to have a positive effect.

I’m going to disagree on this in part. Sometimes, knowing why you do something helps connect multiple points or rationale (logic) behind an approach. I always explain if there’s time.
The just do this teaching style is good for beginners; going down the rabbit-hole of soil fertility, leaf reduction techniques, etc is not only tedious for the teacher but confusing for noobs.

 

[Owen Reich]

I tend to agree with that about being there with a tree instead of photos. I often think that when people here are talking about what to do based on a pic or two. Still, many people’s options are limited, time, money, etc, hands on can really be out of the question for some peoples circumstances not matter how strong the desire.

For me personally I happen to have a few trees in the yard that pretty high in raw quality and that present difficult choices. A video Skype consult could be a really smart move, next best thing...
I would not be a good client to have though because it very well may become only a one time thing or at least very infrequent so that may be a problem if everyone is like that.

I was very lucky to have Owen here to look at a few of the trees that I was having a hard time deciding on, it was great.

Wireme, you are the epitome of isolated from the bonsai scene location-wise. But, the cool trees are super close .

Telepresence bonsai does work if you have a solid knowledge base, as is pointed out below. The limiting factor is the ability of the instructor to communicate without pointing at screen (harder than it sounds) and clearly explaining rationale behind design changes.
The problem I ran into was working with a few people who couldn’t set branches in a pleasing way. Important thing is it does work, it’s cheaper, and the people you want to work with can use their mobile device or laptop if necessary (with good Wi-Fi).

 

[Owen Reich]

????Do you still wonder why us newbies don't understand??

There is also the issue of value in instruction. What should bonsai instruction be easily accessible for less that $40 a head in a workshop? What does a pro achieve? Honestly a wasted day on crappy trees. Do the students benefit? Of course. It’s why I stayed on the road as long as I did. Any teacher can be inspired by lights going on in students’ eyes. Beginner workshops should not be taught by bonsai professionals. Anyone can quote me on that. Nashville’s club is quickly training mentors for beginners. Those mentors will train others.

 

[Woocash]

Boon tells stories of his apprenticeship days... He wasn’t given any instruction, or at least not much. He was expected to learn by doing. If he messed up, he heard about it!

But, to learn wiring, he went out into the garden and looked at the trees there. And figured out how it was done.

I do the same. Even though I’ve been taught by Boon, I’m still open to learning. I recently had Tyler Sherrard style one of my trees. And I’ve closely examined his work. And while I’m pretty good at wiring, he’s at a whole ‘nuther level!

Look at this:

View attachment 277991

Anyone see anything remarkable about that?

He’s managed to anchor the thin wire to the heavier wire so that it acts as a single unit. Would I have Come up with that? I don’t think so! But, I’ll add that technique to my bag of tricks!

It’s things like that you can learn from closely observing the work of a pro. You’ll never see anything like that in a book or video.

I’m confused. If that’s the anchor for the right hand wire then where is the bottom wire anchored to?

 

[Woocash]

You just described the Japanese biz model. Except there they don’t teach the customers unless they want to be involved at the high end level. There are newbs butchering rough stock in Japan too . There are also lots of shitty trees there. They just don’t show them to anyone on the Intl level.

The clients basically treat the truly great bonsai as living art pieces, but they are passed on like fine art. Auctions, appraisals, dealers, agents, translators, etc. The market ebbs and flows. Kimura’s work is big this year. Now Ebihara’s maples are released from a major private collection.... It just like Southerby’s, but broken down by quality tiers. There are local lower quality bonsai tree and bonsai pot auctions all over Japan.

Well this is how it should be. You, as a high end professional, should not be having to teach horticulture. Then, by that extension, you can not easily teach how to convey emotion and artistry either. Van Gogh could no doubt teach how paint, but not how to create his artwork. That would just seem like a monumental waste when he could be creating more art himself. “Those who can not do, teach”, is the usual phrase that comes to mind so maybe that should extend to, “Those who can create beauty, shouldn’t have time for teaching.”

You create the art, create the inspiration, keep showing what people can aspire to. Make your money from selling art. Maybe have an apprentice or two who can then teach as they work their way up to master level, if needs be. Or, have people come to you on a very limited basis from time to time. That is the role of the pro in my eyes, not to be a travelling showman.

Anyone with sufficient experience can teach the fundamentals of bonsai. From my viewpoint, as a beginner (maybe naively) it isn’t complicated. It is not the techniques and horticultural applications which are difficult, it’s almost like a flowchart. When this happens do this, in this situation do that or don’t do that. It is the artistry and nuances which are the difficult and hard to convey parts. That is where pros should make their dough, if they really must teach.

 

[sorce]

Well this is how it should be. You, as a high end professional, should not be having to teach horticulture. Then, by that extension, you can not easily teach how to convey emotion and artistry either. Van Gogh could no doubt teach how paint, but not how to create his artwork. That would just seem like a monumental waste when he could be creating more art himself. “Those who can not do, teach”, is the usual phrase that comes to mind so maybe that should extend to, “Those who can create beauty, shouldn’t have time for teaching.”

You create the art, create the inspiration, keep showing what people can aspire to. Make your money from selling art. Maybe have an apprentice or two who can then teach as they work their way up to master level, if needs be. Or, have people come to you on a very limited basis from time to time. That is the role of the pro in my eyes, not to be a travelling showman.

Anyone with sufficient experience can teach the fundamentals of bonsai. From my viewpoint, as a beginner (maybe naively) it isn’t complicated. It is not the techniques and horticultural applications which are difficult, it’s almost like a flowchart. When this happens do this, in this situation do that or don’t do that. It is the artistry and nuances which are the difficult and hard to convey parts. That is where pros should make their dough, if they really must teach.

__

Sorce

 

[sorce]

@Woocash I think the Pinnacle of that is just as they have it in Japan, only culturally different perhaps.

Here, it would quite align with the $20k + trees being shown in a national show, as presented by professionals who care for them regionally. 50 trucks, one from each state, (well one boat) or whatever, bringing the best of the best. Only the , trees.

Then our current National Show would be yearly in each region, SouthEast, Texas, Southwest, Cali's, PNW, Midwest, Great Lakes, New Englands, and A Carolina.

And what was our top Local shows, Like Chicago's, Are in Neighborhoods, 4 seasons.

My question for @Owen Reich ...

Are we putting on more youthful additions at the front?
Or losing more old folks at the back?
Gaining a population of "middle-aged" folks is what seems likely, which is quite predictable.

What are the real statistics?

You see Baller types come and go...
Are there enough of these people, the "snobs", to support this larger model?

Do "sticks in pots" people become invested in excellence?

What can we do to move toward that direction?

Sorce

 

[sorce]

I can't help about think of what the cultural difference is, Or rather, how cultural differences come to define what a "stick in a pot" is in Japan, as compared to here.

Just thinking about how I feel our "stick in a pot" thing here, works to plague a better movement here.

Where in Japan, they are not so petty as to allow a "stick in a pot"'s existence to ruin what IS.

I feel like we would be better off without the "home Depot" introduction to Bonsai.

Since, to best move forward, removing what is slowing us also counts, not just building new road.

Sorce

 

[Adair M]

View attachment 283503
I’m confused. If that’s the anchor for the right hand wire then where is the bottom wire anchored to?

That’s one piece of wire! The thin wire is anchored to the heavy wire, and thus both ends of the thin wire are anchored.

 

[sorce]

I think the question is more....

Would we get continuity on a multimeter reading these 2 points?


Maybe we can figure it out this way.

Sorce

 

[Adair M]

I think the question is more....

Would we get continuity on a multimeter reading these 2 points?
View attachment 283510

Maybe we can figure it out this way.

Sorce

Yes, that’s one piece of wire!

 

[sorce]

There aren't enough visible termination points to understand the pathway in this picture.


There is a discrepancy with the number of terminal ends here.

Sorce

 

[sorce]

This doesn't make good anchored sense to me....but it seems the only possible path.


I'm just gonna start hitting em with a little solder.

Sorce

 

[Adair M]

There aren't enough visible termination points to understand the pathway in this picture.
View attachment 283511

There is a discrepancy with the number of terminal ends here.

Sorce

The top circle: see how the wire is laid parallel to the larger wire? The end of the little wire on the lower right corner of that circle runs under the twig, comes down under it where we can’t see it, then emerges in the center of the lower yellow circle, and crosses over the twig to the edge of the circle, then down the twig to the end.

The OTHER end, is interesting: from the top circle, it loops under the twig, and crosses over the end of the heavier wire, then comes up next to where the small wire came up, but goes off on the branch to the right.

It’s extremely clever!