Is the current bonsai instructional system broken?

[wireme]

Owen actually offered that for a time, maybe he can comment on how it worked. I still think that you can't really see it till you can put your hands on it.

I tend to agree with that about being there with a tree instead of photos. I often think that when people here are talking about what to do based on a pic or two. Still, many people’s options are limited, time, money, etc, hands on can really be out of the question for some peoples circumstances not matter how strong the desire.

For me personally I happen to have a few trees in the yard that pretty high in raw quality and that present difficult choices. A video Skype consult could be a really smart move, next best thing...
I would not be a good client to have though because it very well may become only a one time thing or at least very infrequent so that may be a problem if everyone is like that.

I was very lucky to have Owen here to look at a few of the trees that I was having a hard time deciding on, it was great.

 

[JudyB]

I tend to agree with that about being there with a tree instead of photos. I often think that when people here are talking about what to do based on a pic or two. Still, many people’s options are limited, time, money, etc, hands on can really be out of the question for some peoples circumstances not matter how strong the desire.

For me personally I happen to have a few trees in the yard that pretty high in raw quality and that present difficult choices. A Skype consult could be a really smart move, next best thing...
I would not be a good client to have though because it very well may be only a one time thing or at least very infrequent so that may be a problem if everyone is like that.

I was very lucky to have Owen here to look at a few of the trees that I was having a hard time deciding on, it was great.

I think if you have an understanding of bonsai and what you are about, the Skype thing could be good, especially if it's a teacher you have had experience with and they with you. I would certainly use it if I had no access and was far from any.

 

[Owen Reich]

I hate to break it to ya, but any profession worth pursuing is going to be “difficult.”

I have no doubt that being a traveling bonsai professional is tremendously demanding. So is being an emergency room physician. So is being a high-stakes trial lawyer. So is being a construction laborer.

If a bonsai professional is not going to travel to work on clients trees, nor travel to do demos, nor teach classes at a home garden....then what exactly are you suggesting the role of a bonsai professional is in an un-“broken” system?

Personally, my 2 cents is that the Mirai model is probably the most viable long-term model. Establish a home garden, make it a desirable destination, and create educational materials.

I will still teach some, but not as much to those new to the art. I’ll be working locally. Pros in Japan don’t really travel. The trees come to them. There they are worked at the proper time. The current model involves people like me traveling from south to north during the seasonal work to help a bunch of people all over. This is great for the clients, but expensive.

if a client brought an suv full of trees and left them for six months, a lot more precise planning and care takes place.

Yes, the jobs mention above do require sacrifice. My concern is for wasted energy and money, with an ultimately inferior product (students, trees, people who will teach others, etc).

 

[Warpig]

A question for the masses.

What if your favourite bonsai pro/artist offered one on one Skype lesson/consulting at a probably pretty high hourly rate?

Maybe you’ve got a tree with lots of options and you can’t decide on one direction so you plonk it onto a turntable in front of the computer camera, spin it around, discuss merits of different choices. Maybe diagnos an ailing tree in the yard as well.. Ask some questions in general, things you wonder about. Hands off but brains on, maybe a good compromise sometimes eh? Maybe that would be an attractive means of teaching and reaching clients for a pro whose been one on too many airplanes lately, or maybe not, dunno.

While I do agree with Judy, it is a interesting thought. If someone well known was to offer such I thing, I could see it doing vary well for both involved.

 

[PABonsai]

I will still teach some, but not as much to those new to the art. I’ll be working locally. Pros in Japan don’t really travel. The trees come to them. There they are worked at the proper time. The current model involves people like me traveling from south to north during the seasonal work to help a bunch of people all over. This is great for the clients, but expensive.

if a client brought an suv full of trees and left them for six months, a lot more precise planning and care takes place.

I completely agree with that last sentiment. But I see it as simple math. You have 100 different people scattered about an area all seeking knowledge, and 1 person with it. While it's easier for that 1 person for the 100 to drive to him it's far easier and far cheaper for that 100 to go to their local place and have the 1 guy come to them.

You mention in Japan the pros don't travel. And that was my point in pointing out that Japan is about as big as California. So to give a fair geographic comparison, would you expect someone in mainland China to go visit the Japanese nursery a few times a year for classes on his own dime? Do you think many laymen do that? I don't think it's unreasonable at all if you plan to have a setup where folks from around you come visit. After all that is the Japanese model. The problem is that in Japan you pros are much closer together and much closer to the people with interest.

I think the true crux of the problem is simply that so many people with interest are spread so far around away from the pros. At nature's way we get lots of pros from Europe. There's no way we would get to even meet them if we had to go to Europe on our expense for one off trips. Instead they come to the US and travel around spreading the cost across nurseries and earning their compensation along the way.

Plus, in Japan it's a very engrained, mature, longstanding industry. The pros don't travel because for hundreds of years they could just sell their stuff locally or to anyone with enough money who traveled in. They didn't have to travel. I would hope you don't want bonsai in the US to turn into solely a rich man's hobby, but that's where is sounds like your head is. I would think a client that "brings an SUV full of trees and leaves them for six months" isn't us. While it's good for you, that kind of money is hard to come by because you won't be donating six months of work and space to that client.

To be clear, I see no fault in your sentiment, or your desire to settle down. I completely respect that and don't have any negative opinion of you for it. I just simply disagree that it'll make education in the US easier.

 

[Warpig]

I would hope you don't want bonsai in the US to turn into solely a rich man's hobby, but that's where is sounds like your head is. I would think a client that "brings an SUV full of trees and leaves them for six months" isn't us. While it's good for you, that kind of money is hard to come by because you won't be donating six months of work and space to that client.

I think you make a fair point when you are talking about the size differences. But, you lost me on this last part?

I'm failing to see what you are trying to say? What would be your ideal model?

 

[Warpig]

<Double Posted>

 

[Robley6]

Sounds harsh but someone will do a Mirai live for free and suck up a lot of online sales. Just hasn't happened yet.

 

[sorce]

: Are their trees better than mine?

You know how everyone acts when they come to the revelation that post count doesn't equate to bonsai knowledge?

How is having trees better than yours a gauge of knowledge, or ability to teach?

Is this also not telling a newb with a stick a newb with a better stick is as good a teacher as Owen?

I find it silly that folks can see one farce and not another.

The most limiting factor in knowledge gathering here is that stupid piece of BS we spread around like the plague.

Nigel Saunders may never have trees someone aspires to have, but I garauntee everyone here could gather a tidbit from him at least.

Getting deja Vu so I know this one is good!

Not biggin me up or knocking you down @Orion_metalhead , just don't limit yourself!

Sorce

 

[sorce]

See, that attitude will impede your learning.

Only his and not yours?

Of course now, I know a whole lot more about it.

Thinking will never impede learning.

Not applying the How without the Why may impede a trees progress but that is all.

Ahem.

Sorce

 

[AZbonsai]

Boon pretty much reinvented bonsai education when he started his Intensive program. Now, I understand that not everyone can take three days and travel to California several times a year, but the experience can’t be beat.

Totally agree. We just had 2 PBS members who completed the intensives and they have shared a great deal of knowledge with the club. Boon came out and did a demo with the club which was great as well. That may be the "model".

 

[A. Gorilla]

>>How the second flush would have short needles. I didnt know anything about “auxin”. I didn’t know it’s because they naturally live in typhoon prone areas.

That is the by far dumbest thing I've heard the smartest people say.

High winds selectively stripping off pine candles?

What about the double flush pines in north America which never see hurricanes?

One can chalk it up to a longer growing season and satisfy the question in a much simpler way.

Come at me, bros.

 

[sorce]

dumbest thing I've heard the smartest people sa

It also makes Mugo a Zero Flush Pine.

I think the numbers are programmed into the seed.

Yearly adaptations can't come from random spontaneous events.

Sorce

 

[A. Gorilla]

It also makes Mugo a Zero Flush Pine.

I think the numbers are programmed into the seed.

Yearly adaptations can't come from random spontaneous events.

Sorce

All I know is that if I hear it again, I'm going to start swinging and passing out naps.

Bonsai prison rules in effect.

*Having evolved in a longer growing season, I should have said.

 

[sorce]

Bonsai prison rules in effect.

Mexican got on boots.

Forgive me Owen.

Sorce

 

[Orion_metalhead]

Ive been seriously interested in bonsai for about 1 year now... in one year i feel i

See, that attitude will impede your learning.

What if the answer isn’t known?

Let me give you an example: Back around 1980, I first learned about decandling JBP. How the second flush would have short needles. I didnt know anything about “auxin”. I didn’t know it’s because they naturally live in typhoon prone areas. All I knew (was told) “cut off the spring candles, and you will get a second flush of growth that will have shorter needles”.

Of course now, I know a whole lot more about it. And I know all kinds of ways to enhance the effect.

But, my ignorance of all the fancy things, or the science, didn’t stop it from working.

Once again, im not saying dont do what works until you know the why behind it, just that if something works, it behooves the practicioner to seek out information as to why it does work, which, ultimately, is what happened in your case. You found something that worked, and over time through study and research, you learned why it did. Maybe the science finally caught up to explain the why, maybe you found missng information... that is different from not caring to learn the reasons behind something.

 

[Adair M]

Ive been seriously interested in bonsai for about 1 year now... in one year i feel i


Once again, im not saying dont do what works until you know the why behind it, just that if something works, it behooves the practicioner to seek out information as to why it does work, which, ultimately, is what happened in your case. You found something that worked, and over time through study and research, you learned why it did. Maybe the science finally caught up to explain the why, maybe you found missng information... that is different from not caring to learn the reasons behind something.

What you said was you expected was the person who taught the “what” should know the “why”.

The “why” can be as simple as “because it works”, or “because the tree will respond like this”. The biology behind it is not necessary.

By the way, it was John Naka who taught me about decandling. He didn’t mention auxin, or where there trees live or anything. He just said, “do this”, the tree will respond “like that”.

 

[Adair M]

One can chalk it up to a longer growing season and satisfy the question in a much simpler way.

Longer growing season? Causing double flush pines to evolve?

Hmm...

If the candles aren’t removed, by high winds or scissors, there’s no second flush from the base of the spring candle. You “may” get a second flush of growth from the spring candle’s terminal tip, extending that shoot a second time. But that’s not the kind of “second flush” we’re talking about. We’re calling a “second flush” new growth from the base of where the spring candles emerged. Not the terminal tip of the spring candle.

A second flush from the terminal tip is not unique to JBP. I have JWP and Scots pines (which are “single flush pines”) do it occasionally.

The original tree where the “decandling” effect was discovered didn’t get decandled by high winds, it was an insect that ate the new shoots.

Regardless of exactly what the exact cause of the adaptation was, for our purposes what’s important is learning how the tree responds to the stimulus. And learning how to best apply the technique to optimize the desired response.

Sorry... this has taken this thread off topic!

Let’s return to discussing bonsai education!

 

[MrWunderful]

What you said was you expected was the person who taught the “what” should know the “why”.

The “why” can be as simple as “because it works”, or “because the tree will respond like this”. The biology behind it is not necessary.

By the way, it was John Naka who taught me about decandling. He didn’t mention auxin, or where there trees live or anything. He just said, “do this”, the tree will respond “like that”.

In western Trade apprenticeships, “why” is just as important as “how”. If one of my apprentices asked “why” a neutral is derived from the XO on a transformer, and I told him “because it does, dont worry about it” I would be setting them up for failure.

That might be the difference though, the apprenticeships we have here are almost exclusively trade based (electrician, plumber etc. ) and I dont think they consider bonsai a“trade” per say. More of a master/servant dynamic ie “just do what you are told and shut up”

 

[Anthony]

If you understand properties, you can imaginatively manipulate.
If you teach or learn by rote, it will go no where.

So if a tree, flushes omce, I would want to lnow why.
I cannot respond to ---- it has always been done that way.
Not much of a teacher, rote.
Good Day
Anthony