Do those $375 trees have fairly thick trunks (>= 2 inches) or are nursery prices for maples just kind of high in your locale? It's hard to tell the scale just from looking at pictures. I've never paid anywhere near that much for maple nursery stock around here, although I've seen some with prices in that range, all with trunks over 2 inches. My experience buying thinner stock has been that it takes less time than one might expect to go from stock with a 1/2 inch trunk to 2+ inches just growing it out in bonsai substrate in an oversized container.
What's a fair price for a pre-bonsai maple?
- Thread starter AcerAddict
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AcerAddict
Shohin
The Sharp's Pygmy has a fairly thin trunk, about 1.25 to 1.5" in diameter, but I bought that via the Bonsai Auctions Facebook group from a seller in the PNW, who got it from Iseli Nursery. I have yet to see one of those locally in almost 2 years living here. I'm OK with that particular trunk being straight though because I'm doing a broom style with it.
The 5' Shishigashira that I did get locally has a trunk about 3" or more a few inches up from the ground. It's grafted, but I likely won't ground layer it next year. I want to get as many air layers from it as possible first, then decide what to do about the trunk (pic attached.) The nursery I bought it from has a pretty good variety of JM cultivars, but they're ALL grafted because it's not a bonsai-specific place. They sell material purely for landscape use. I bought the Shishigashira with the full intention of air laying the heck out of it to get smaller trees either for development and/or future sale. Some of its branches are already over an inch thick on their own.
As far as prices at this nursery for other JMs, they're not too extreme. A standard green I bought from them earlier this year that's about 4 or 5' tall with a 1.5" trunk cost me $59. My local Lowe's or HD wants that much money for a little 1/2" or 3/4" thick stick in a pot. The most expensive JM at this nursery is the Shishigashira in a 15-gallon pot, which is what I bought. They have some other cultivars in 15 gallon pots, such as Bloodgood, Beni Otake, and Viridis, but none of those cost more than $300 for about a 5-7' specimen.
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parhamr
Omono
Pricing can be so hard to nail down to specifics for so many reasons.
I live near some of the growing fields where these Shishigashira are grown out for landscaping. Here’s one that’s over 6 feet tall and I paid $74.95 for it.
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AcerAddict
Shohin
This particular nursery I shop at only has a few Shishigashira for sale at one time. They are definitely not a volume seller of those, so the high price is somewhat understandable. Their JM selection is mostly made up of standard Ap and Bloodgood, with various other cultivars peppered in. They want $200 for a 2' tall Shishi in a one square foot wooden planter box. It's insane. That's why I went ahead and paid $375 for the much bigger one. If I want to develop the air layers and grow them out for a year or two before selling them, I'd make enough money to cover the cost of the original tree and then some.
I mean, if International Bonsai can ask $825 for this 15" tall grafted Shishi, then there's hope for me to make money off mine. At least mine will all be on their own roots.
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leatherback
The Treedeemer
Keep in mind..: I have found that what people are willing to spend in a shop or give to a known trader is factors higher than they will pay for plants from individuals. Think back to when you bought your first ferrari.. You bought the car, and the minute you leave the sellers lot the car was worth 100K less
Gr8tfuldad
Chumono
I get the feeling that most of the pre bonsai stock listed online are the runts of the litter that didn’t sell elsewhere. Maybe I’m wrong, but most of gold star material is kept for their own personal collection, sold at shows or in person.
AcerAddict
Shohin
Oh, don't get me wrong. I'm not so naïve to think that I could actually sell a 1yr old Shishi air layer for $800 or more. I'm just using that as an example of what's out there. In 2023, after they've spent a year in a pot on their own roots, I'll probably put one or two in the FB Bonsai Auction group and see what they go for. I'll let the market decide what they're worth at that point in time.
Price appears to be a function of a number of factors, with level of development being number one. To me, a bonsai will have 3 main phases - (i) growing the trunk/initial nebari; (ii) development of trunk, nebari and branches; and (iii) "finishing" the trunk and branch work. To me, all pre-bonsai are in step (i), and therefore I am only willing to pay a certain amount based upon how thick the trunk is and whether it has any movement that I can start working with. These prices are pretty transparent and are basically the nursery stock prices. The main difference I see between this kind of "pre-bonsai" and nursery stock is that the "pre bonsai" did me the "favor(???)" of cutting down the tree so it can be shipped (thereby limiting all the great growth potential the cut branches had and the additional trunk thickness it would cause). I'd pay a premium for a 6" trunk that was cut down somewhat because I simply can't find that caliper trunk on the market without the rest of the 25 ft tree it usually comes with.
I will pay a premium over the nursery stock prices for a cut trunk that has been repotted with the tap roots cut and roots set up to grow right in good soil.
The questions for me ultimately are what is my time worth and what is the value of the work done on the tree? I'm looking forward to going to a show (being invited to the Facebook site), but most everything I have seen online is either highly overpriced because they are not developed or not done well. From what I have seen thus far, I tend to agree with the comment that the trees online are the runts in the litter. I would add that they are also developed for the bonsai tourists.
I will pay a premium over the nursery stock prices for a cut trunk that has been repotted with the tap roots cut and roots set up to grow right in good soil.
The questions for me ultimately are what is my time worth and what is the value of the work done on the tree? I'm looking forward to going to a show (being invited to the Facebook site), but most everything I have seen online is either highly overpriced because they are not developed or not done well. From what I have seen thus far, I tend to agree with the comment that the trees online are the runts in the litter. I would add that they are also developed for the bonsai tourists.
Soup Dragon
Mame
I'd love to hear an answer to this.
I have a very small kotohime maple that I'd like to turn into two very small kotohime maples, but I am scared to use the typical air layer method on a very thin trunk in case I cut too deep or something. I expect that the tourniquet method might be less successful, but perhaps it is also less risky.
I ordered some trident maple presents - one for my son and one for myself (I offered the wife one, but she seems to want something other than a tree????). It appears they charged something like $25 per 1/4 inch of trunk - so $200 for a 2" trunk (plus shipping). Definitely not bargain basement cheap, but I though it was fair given that I can start work right away in the spring and don't have to grow the trunk first.
leatherback
The Treedeemer
I have layered a young grafted arakawa and I have done a tourniquette on a young grafted arakawa, in the same year. Both rooted within a few months, no clear difference
John P.
Chumono
I have a preference for tourniquets because they work, and I can also place them (and a container with growing media) during winter downtime. They effectively kick-in after the leaves have pushed and the trunk thickens. I wouldn’t do that with a ring bark method.
Maiden69
Masterpiece
I don't understand why, physiologically you are doing the same thing. Both methods restrict the flow of nutrients to the roots. I do a combination of both, I ring bark and place a tourniquet right against the top edge to promote more flair as the tree swells.
John P.
Chumono
Yes, they both work, absolutely. Sometimes I do both. But as I stated I prefer tourniquets because they can be done in winter.
coh
Imperial Masterpiece
Shishi is a very slow grower, which adds to the cost for a decent sized specimen. If you have access to a large stock or yard plant and can take decent sized layers from it, you might well be able to get quite a bit for them.
AcerAddict
Shohin
I bought this field-grown Trident maple from Green Thumb Bonsai in South Carolina for $180 + shipping. It's 8 years old and 21" tall with a 2" trunk. The $25 per 1/4 inch of trunk price you paid pretty much matches what I paid.
I have to decide between now and early next year if I will keep this tree as-is and do a broom style, or layer the trunk at the split and do a twin-trunk style. Haven't gotten a good look at the existing root base yet, but after I do, I'll decide the tree's future path.
First pic is after I got the tree several months ago. Second pic is today.
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AcerAddict
Shohin
Yeah, it does grow slowly, which is why I bought mine primarily with the intention of making some money off the air layers, while keeping 1 or 2 for myself. The branches I'm setting up next year range in diameter from probably 5/8 to 1-1/2 inches. I'll likely keep the layer with the thickest trunk to develop myself and sell the rest. There's a fair amount of natural movement in the branches I'm taking off.
LOL, I picked up my trees from the same place. Should get them this week. I think the movement on your tree is nicer. Good buy. I'd love to see how it progresses.
What are you doing with your tree to overwinter and what will you repot in? I will likely bury the pots in the ground. Bought 28 gallons of bonsai jack soil and will be repotting everything in it.
What are you doing with your tree to overwinter and what will you repot in? I will likely bury the pots in the ground. Bought 28 gallons of bonsai jack soil and will be repotting everything in it.
AcerAddict
Shohin
Our winters here are usually mild. The high today is 72, with a high of 74 tomorrow. However, Sunday's low is 37, so go figure. It only snows like once every several years, and even then it melts shortly after hitting the ground. I don't do anything special for the trees in winter here other than bringing the 2 or 3 tropical species inside. If we do end up having a night or two with temps well below freezing, I'll move some of the more sensitive stuff into the garage.
As far as soil goes, I've only ever bought and used the Bonsai Jack standard organic mix. I need to order a lot more with all the trees I'll be moving from nursery pots with standard soil to flats with bonsai soil in the spring. I'm going to build several shallow boxes out of cedar fence boards from Lowe's Home Improvement.
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