What's a fair price for a pre-bonsai maple?

[SexyGArdener]

I love Japanese maples to begin with, and have yet to see a cultivar I didn't like. I want an Arakawa primarily for that awesome bark.

Bro, I got your Arakawa free of charge. I recently bought a large tree this year, and took some cuttings & airlayers of branches I was going to compose anyways. The cuttings and airlayers have no worth in the near future, but at least it's not grafted and you can mold its future to your desire. I commute between GA and SC often, so holla at your boy if you want one. I would rather not ship until after its 2nd year to ensure its survival.

 

[Potawatomi13]

Pre Bonsai/stick in pot $4.95-$14.95.

 

[AcerAddict]

Ouch! Quite a markup (mine was under $100), but as you say … sometimes ya gotta do it!

Indeed. Like I always say though, I'm sure that some of my other material was bought for a song, so it all evens out in the end.

 

[Pitoon]

When I was at the show this past weekend. I asked Tyler about pricing of trees. He basically told me trees are priced on the market. So with this logic all it takes is a few individuals to raise prices and the rest will follow, same goes as lowering prices. I grow a lot of plants so I can understand the prices most venders ask for. Sometimes though prices seem to be a bit inflated.........but what isn't at this current day. The more currency in circulation makes for weaker purchasing power. There is also overhead a business has to incorporate into prices. With everything else going up in price, everything becomes affected.

..............but keep in mind what you see on the tag is not necessarily what you HAVE to pay. Everything is negotiable, I had several vendors tell me "Make me an offer" when I was there.

As I always preach.....it's not the tree you are buying, it's the time put into the tree. If one wants a specific species that's easy just cut off a 6" cutting stick it into some media and get it to root. But if one wants a plant that has been trained to some degree that takes time and time equates to compensation.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

You’re right! They are the only nursery I’ve found around here that brings in rarer maple cultivars (Arakawa, Sharp’s Pygmy, Deshojo, etc.). Last spring they had some Yatsubusa elms, too, and I’ve seen them use Hokkaido elms in their planted arrangements. Green Thumb nursery recently started bringing in some Iseli Nursery stuff, too, which is one of the growers of the fun varieties.

For what it's worth, you can order Iseli stock directly from Green Thumb, so if they don't carry it, they can get it for you. It might take a couple weeks, but if you are looking for an unusual cultivar and don't mind buying blind, it is a solution that worked for me.

 

[John P.]

For what it's worth, you can order Iseli stock directly from Green Thumb, so if they don't carry it, they can get it for you. It might take a couple weeks, but if you are looking for an unusual cultivar and don't mind buying blind, it is a solution that worked for me.

Thanks—I was actually compiling a wish list last night. Roger’s, while great for many things—has been unresponsive when it comes to special orders. Even Armstrong has been great.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Grafted JM are frequently a problem. Often requiring delaying development by one or two years while you go through the effort of air layering the scion off the understock. MOST nurseries that are not bonsai orientated sell only grafted maples. Maples grow quickly, it does not take too many years, 3 to 5 to bulk up cutting grown JM cultivars from Evergreen Gardenworks. Brent (the owner) is a member of BNut and has been propagating JM for bonsai for more than 30 years.

His current list (December 2021 update) only has 5 or so cultivars available, due to a crop failure, but the list of cultivars he maintains is there, and it is about 30 cultivars selected as being useful for bonsai. You really need to take a look. He updates his availability monthly. Brent DOES respond to emails, he understands bonsai, and he has a long list of specimens that are too few in number to put on the website list. Just call (or email) and ask if he has any more advanced specimens of the ones he normally lists.

I'm pretty sure by spring Evergreen will have many of the "crop failure" listings back in stock.

Check him out.

Evergreen Gardenworks

 

[AcerAddict]

Evergreen Gardenworks. Brent (the owner) is a member of BNut and has been propagating JM for bonsai for more than 30 years.

Check him out.

Evergreen Gardenworks

I've already had his website bookmarked for a while now. Sad to hear about the crop that was lost this year. Like I've mentioned in various threads around here though, I've got more than enough immature tree material as it is. Going forward, I'll be spending my bonsai budget money on stuff that is further along than just a handful of years.

I'm up to seven cultivars of JM in my collection, but a couple are just patio trees in pots and won't be "bonsai-ified" like the others.

• Standard green Acer palmatum
• Bloodgood
• Orangeola (patio tree)
• Crimson Queen (patio tree)
• Shishigashira, AKA Lion's Head
• Arakawa
• Sharp's Pygmy

During the next year, I'd like to add one or more of the following: a red standard Ap, Kotohime, Rhode Island Red, Orange Dream, or Shin Deshojo. If I have to burn a year of development ground layering off the root stock on any of these varieties, that's fine.

 

[Pitoon]

I've already had his website bookmarked for a while now. Sad to hear about the crop that was lost this year. Like I've mentioned in various threads around here though, I've got more than enough immature tree material as it is. Going forward, I'll be spending my bonsai budget money on stuff that is further along than just a handful of years.

I'm up to seven cultivars of JM in my collection, but a couple are just patio trees in pots and won't be "bonsai-ified" like the others.

• Standard green Acer palmatum
• Bloodgood
• Orangeola (patio tree)
• Crimson Queen (patio tree)
• Shishigashira, AKA Lion's Head
• Arakawa
• Sharp's Pygmy

During the next year, I'd like to add one or more of the following: a red standard Ap, Kotohime, Rhode Island Red, Orange Dream, or Shin Deshojo. If I have to burn a year of development ground layering off the root stock on any of these varieties, that's fine.

I plan on taking about 2 dozen 'Orange Dream' cuttings this coming season. I have not been able to find 'Orange Dream' on their own roots, broke down and picked up grafted ones.

 

[John P.]

I plan on taking about 2 dozen 'Orange Dream' cuttings this coming season. I have not been able to find 'Orange Dream' on their own roots, broke down and picked up grafted ones.

Last year I used tourniquets on pencil-or-smaller branches of Orange Dream and each one took. One of my favorite cultivars.

 

[dbonsaiw]

Very interesting thread. Personally, I have not found much "pre-bonsai" material that I liked and that was priced right for me. Part of the issue seems to be that every tree that is not yet a bonsai is called a "pre-bonsai". That's how folks get $60 for a stick in the mud (and call it a 15+ year old tree). If I need to grow out the tree significantly and also start the root work on a tree, I just don't consider it pre-bonsai. Rather, it's a tree that I can bonsai. Basic cuttings/seedlings should be no more than $15. Rarer cultivars may fetch a little more. I'll do some impulse buying at a nursery if I find something I like and pay up to maybe $200 for something that catches my eye and has a good start on a trunk.

I have had a lot of fun with the big box maples. For about $30, you get a tree that has been growing for a few years, has developed at least a 1" trunk and has some nebari going on. After a repotting and digging out the hidden trunk, one of these bad boys is over 2.5" trunk diameter.

 

[AcerAddict]

Very interesting thread. Personally, I have not found much "pre-bonsai" material that I liked and that was priced right for me. Part of the issue seems to be that every tree that is not yet a bonsai is called a "pre-bonsai". That's how folks get $60 for a stick in the mud (and call it a 15+ year old tree). If I need to grow out the tree significantly and also start the root work on a tree, I just don't consider it pre-bonsai. Rather, it's a tree that I can bonsai.

If you look at my links in the original post (the working links, anyway), you'll see examples of what I would typically consider as pre-bonsai material. The links contained stuff being sold for a minimum of two or three hundred dollars, if I remember correctly. One of the trees was as high as a thousand dollars. In this thread anyway, I'm definitely not referring to or looking to purchase a $60 stick in the mud.

You're definitely spot-on with this statement: Part of the issue seems to be that every tree that is not yet a bonsai is called a "pre-bonsai".

To be fair, the term "pre-bonsai" could be applied to a HUGE range of material, simply because the definition is different for each of us. For example, these are both pre-bonsai to me if I'm being REALLY flexible with my definition of it:

• A maple in an Anderson flat that has been in training for five years, has a decent nebari developing, and a fair amount of trunk taper going for it.
• A maple that was in a 5-gallon nursery pot but just got bare-rooted, trunk chopped, and put into a flat this year.

Both examples are worthy of the term, despite one having 5 years of training, and the other one literally just being bought from a nursery and put into a flat. Yes, I know the latter example will essentially be a "stick in a pot" for a while, but isn't that still a "pre-bonsai?" It's just not a very developed one.

 

[dbonsaiw]

We are on the same page and I believe in similar places in this bonsai journey. Perhaps I was a little too harsh with the "stick in the mud" description, but I am at a total loss as to why any of these trees would fetch anywhere near the prices being asked. I caveat that statement with the fact that I am a newbie (obsessive, but a newbie no less). The Sharps Pygmy is a nice cultivar and looks like a decent tree, but $850? It has a 1 1/4" trunk and stands 21" high. To me, the branching on this tree is irrelevant as I would need to grow the tree for some time to fatten up the trunk to a point that I would be ready to begin development and then chop it well below where the branches currently are. 3.5" nebari? Seems like a stretch. It has the beginnings of nebari, but not the type of root flare that I would be measuring as nebari in terms of trunk thickness at the flare. I personally see this as just a nicer cultivar of the $15 big box maple, with the inclusion of a pot and better soil (and I would likely replace both).

Similarly, what about the trident maple or trident grove would warrant those prices? How much would it cost to plant a few different sized young trees into this arrangement? For both, how far did the seller bring me along the development process? For the single trident, did the seller just stick me with a style that I can't really do anything with? I would pay $800 for an OK tree that would spend its life in my possession in a bonsai pot - i.e. a more finished tree. Alternatively, I would pay that amount for much better material that, while possibly committing me to a specific style/size and far from finished, brings me many seasons ahead of the timeline I would otherwise be on.

Looking back on my first year of bonsai, of all the many trees I purchased, I am most satisfied with the big box and nursery purchases. The big box are dirt cheap and give me the opportunity to learn (and make many mistakes) - they are also pretty hardy. These trees have pretty decent sized trunks on which I can start development into smaller specimens next season. Root systems are total crap. The trees arent cared for and have been terribly root bound. Can't think of a better tree to practice some root grafting on. At $150, the nurseries have many trees with giant trunks and well looked after roots (not nebari per se, but healthy as can be). And they are half off at the end of fall.

I plan to check out some shows/auctions, but to date the only way I found to "cheat" the bonsai timeline is to purchase trees that have more developed trunks and start the process from there. Everything else basically seems to be catering to "tourists" with differing price points.

 

[rockm]

We are on the same page and I believe in similar places in this bonsai journey. Perhaps I was a little too harsh with the "stick in the mud" description, but I am at a total loss as to why any of these trees would fetch anywhere near the prices being asked. I caveat that statement with the fact that I am a newbie (obsessive, but a newbie no less). The Sharps Pygmy is a nice cultivar and looks like a decent tree, but $850? It has a 1 1/4" trunk and stands 21" high. To me, the branching on this tree is irrelevant as I would need to grow the tree for some time to fatten up the trunk to a point that I would be ready to begin development and then chop it well below where the branches currently are. 3.5" nebari? Seems like a stretch. It has the beginnings of nebari, but not the type of root flare that I would be measuring as nebari in terms of trunk thickness at the flare. I personally see this as just a nicer cultivar of the $15 big box maple, with the inclusion of a pot and better soil (and I would likely replace both).

Similarly, what about the trident maple or trident grove would warrant those prices? How much would it cost to plant a few different sized young trees into this arrangement? For both, how far did the seller bring me along the development process? For the single trident, did the seller just stick me with a style that I can't really do anything with? I would pay $800 for an OK tree that would spend its life in my possession in a bonsai pot - i.e. a more finished tree. Alternatively, I would pay that amount for much better material that, while possibly committing me to a specific style/size and far from finished, brings me many seasons ahead of the timeline I would otherwise be on.

Looking back on my first year of bonsai, of all the many trees I purchased, I am most satisfied with the big box and nursery purchases. The big box are dirt cheap and give me the opportunity to learn (and make many mistakes) - they are also pretty hardy. These trees have pretty decent sized trunks on which I can start development into smaller specimens next season. Root systems are total crap. The trees arent cared for and have been terribly root bound. Can't think of a better tree to practice some root grafting on. At $150, the nurseries have many trees with giant trunks and well looked after roots (not nebari per se, but healthy as can be). And they are half off at the end of fall.

I plan to check out some shows/auctions, but to date the only way I found to "cheat" the bonsai timeline is to purchase trees that have more developed trunks and start the process from there. Everything else basically seems to be catering to "tourists" with differing price points.

Bottom line is consider the seller and look at the nebari...Some sellers just cut down nursery stock and that's it. Others have worked their pre-bonsai stock trees a bit. This becomes apparent if you see stuff in person at shows and sales.

Nebari is also a significant element. Good stock worth the $$ has it and has had work go into it.

As for the big box stuff. Yeah, it's great learning material. I've never had a tree from a big box store for more than four years. I worked on them for that long then sold them off because most are a mess root-wise and the species they have aren't all that interesting or worthwhile to develop. Grafting roots on a big box tree is mostly polishing a turd. I don't bother with them anymore.

 

[dbonsaiw]

polishing a turd

Great line!

 

[hinmo24t]

for some perspective...i have seen grafted variations from $24 (home depot, walmart) - $600, all the same size roughly, but different variations from different sellers

i am aiming to spend around $200ish combined on 2 to 3 of them come spring, i scouted last season

i wont be using them as bonsai, rather container patio trees and air layering bonsai from them

 

[dbonsaiw]

To be sure, the only maples I purchased at a bog box were plain vanilla Acer Palmatum sans graft. I happen to have liked the fact that they are openly-pollinated mutts and are different from one another. Some are truly boring, but others were nice.

 

[hinmo24t]

To be sure, the only maples I purchased at a bog box were plain vanilla Acer Palmatum sans graft. I happen to have liked the fact that they are openly-pollinated mutts and are different from one another. Some are truly boring, but others were nice.

good call. for my above comment, the more expensive ones in that range i mentioned were from private nurseries

also i remember hearing anecdotally on here from someone reputable the standard green acer from home cheapo is a strong candidate among acers for bonsai
might of had to do with prolific growth habits, was awhile ago though, and their fall colors are really nice

 

[AcerAddict]

I plan to check out some shows/auctions, but to date the only way I found to "cheat" the bonsai timeline is to purchase trees that have more developed trunks and start the process from there. Everything else basically seems to be catering to "tourists" with differing price points.

After attending my first bonsai show last weekend, I will say that I'm much more educated as far as pricing goes, and I will be more analytical of material purchases going forward. The show gave me the opportunity to see very similar material priced VERY differently by vendors, and that knowledge will stick with me.

The market drives the cost of bonsai, like many other things. While I am a very long way from being a price-to-value expert, at the very least I can now avoid some major pitfalls, such as an $850 Sharp's Pygmy or an $825 grafted 15" tall Shishigashira.

Instead, I bought the Sharp's already mentioned above for $375, as well as this 5' tall Shishigashira from a local nursery for about $375. I hope to get at least four nice air layers off this tree next year and more the following year.

 

[Lorax7]

Last year I used tourniquets on pencil-or-smaller branches of Orange Dream and each one took. One of my favorite cultivars.

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Has anybody around here ever done an apples-to-apples comparison of tourniquet vs. cutting a ring around the trunk methods? Any difference in success rate? Pros & cons of each method? I've only ever done air layering by cutting the cambium layer off below the layer.