Fair price to lease a space for a single field grown tree?

[wireme]

We had a few clients fly in a week or so ago to pick up some trees we got for them. During their visit we gave them a tour of the lot we are building our new nursery on and got on the discussion of our growing fields. Something I had never thought of before as we mainly deal in trees already in pots was the fact that a lot of bonsai collectors from beginner up to the guys with expensive collections don't have their own ground if they want to put a tree in it to thicken it up in a hurry. One of our clients from NYC asked me while we were walking the future fields site "How much would you charge me per year if I sent you a rooted cutting of ______(insert species here)_____________ to have it grown out in your field"? I didn't have an answer. My first thought was why not just buy a tree we already grew out but then the client said "I have a few trees I would like clones of, but don't have the ground to do it in" which kind of made it make sense to me.

So the question is, what do you think would be a fair price if we started offering such a service?

Our cost per tree site (4 foot x 4 foot) per year to maintain is about $60 per year when you calculate in the slate tile we bury under the mound, irrigation, fertilizer, labor for maintenance such as weed picking, inspecting each tree every 5 weeks for health, ect. Slightly higher than that if we do any trunk contorting on the tree early on to get it gnarly from the start or need to cover the tree over winter for frost protection. So it would have to be at least as much as our cost. I dont anticipate we would be doing this for people very often as conceptually it wouldn't be a useful service to the bulk of people, but for the rarest of occasions like for the client that just asked us I would like to know what you all think would be fair.

@sorce Your input would be appreciated here as well.

If your clients trees really have special genetics would you be interested in incorporating them into your own stock? Get a bunch of cuttings and grow out as per usual on speculation? No rental fee, once some are ready for sale the donor gets first pic the rest are just grown out and available like all the rest of your trees.

 

[Cadillactaste]

Da...I gess i am quit ignornt. Lol (Drool slipping off the side of my face.) I am so stupd...I didn't bother reading your post.

~Later oh wise one...lol Oh english wise onr...please corrsxt my error od ways.

 

[Stillwater]

I forgot the most important lesson to this.

My Pottery business...

Sorce

You make bonsai pots? We need to have a chat! We lost 3 potters this past year that we purchased from regularly, 1 we lost to cancer, 2 others just got out of the hobby. We've been looking for a few new unique potters to start getting some new material from. Based on your writing style, and apparent perception on things I would imagine your pottery is far from just ordinary or routine. I would be very interested in having a serious discussion with you about getting some of your pots.

 

[Stillwater]

If your clients trees really have special genetics would you be interested in incorporating them into your own stock? Get a bunch of cuttings and grow out as per usual on speculation? No rental fee, once some are ready for sale the donor gets first pic the rest are just grown out and available like all the rest of your trees.

Had actually not thought of that. It seems like a thousand times better solution than what my client proposed to me, and having worked on the particular tree he wants cloned I wouldn't mind having a few pieces myself from that parent stock.

I am for sure going to e-mail the client today and propose this idea. it would have probably taken me a few days to think of that myself. What a helpful chap you are ! Thank you so much for your reply !!!

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

I have 6x6 metres of greenhouse available from a local farmer that I advise, for free.
Communal gardens around here are 50 bucks per year, per 10x5 metre plot.

Field grown is field grown if you'd ask me; no inspection, no health status, nothing more than watering and maybe some manure.
If they want care, they'll need man hours they can buy from you. Wage+tax+profit for every kind of handling seems very reasonable from a company perspective. But the customer will likely say no to that.

That's where business reflexes should kick in: can you let a trainee do the care? Is this a high return customer thay shuts his/her mouth about this so you dont have to explain to regular customers that this is an extra? Economically, what do you gain from it? If not much, make a deal: planting, watering and fertilizing only are included in rent price, for all the rest they can hire you.
A skilled worker doing skilled work is worth a lot.

The people in the greenhouse at the company I work for, charge every seperate breeder seperately by the hour. And yes, that means 80-140 bucks a day cost wise, for something like sowing seeds, but also 80-140 bucks a day to plow a field, or bug inspection.

 

[Stillwater]

Sounds like a lot of hoops and potential hassle, id offer to take the cuttings, plant them out and offer them a tree at a discounted rate once they've reached maturity, in the mean while you now have a handful of those trees for your use or resale.

Snap, What's up brother. Totally missed your reply in the slew of them that flew in so quickly. @wireme had pretty much the same idea. A totally great one at that. I guess next time i should just pick up the phone and call you directly.

Get your wheels turning? Itching to get some bonsai ink here soon !

 

[rockm]

There's no need to trash her for he comment. They are spot on for me. Why make all the fuss over a "special tree" when well, err, clones can be more reliable in passing traits on than seeds, but they're not infallible source of identical copies. A clone is no guarantee to get a completely identical copy of what you're cloning for.

Recent report on cloned polo ponies on 60 Minutes made that clear. All of the horses in the photos are clones of the same original horse. Note the outward cosmetic markings (and probably a lot more) such as white stockings, head markings, etc. are hardly the same on all of the animals.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/the-clones-of-polo/

Spending a lot of money for something that might not even be genetically programmed in the tree (bark can be a result of environment), might not be a budget friendly approach...

 

[Cadillactaste]

Thanks @rockm for offering a gal a hand...so she didn't drown in her own drool. ?

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

Cloning a species of tree...a Cork Barked Chinese Elm...is a cork barked chinese elm...if it's received prizes then those attributes are from ones hand styling it...is how it got there.

I am sorry...but I call a BS. It isn't a pet with a pedigree line one is attempting to clone. (Which I find rediculous to begin with) But a plant...that can be sold and styled and the hand that tends it is the ones hands at work. No cutting in ground becomes a masterpiece by ground growing alone.

You lost me...and this thread is a mockery of what we do.

Apparently ones honestly don't grasp bonsai
If a cutting is grown and built. Won't mean a hill of beans to say it one day will be a prized tree.

Shaking my head at this BS ...

@rockm was bang on in his first post.

Please read up on the term 'epigenetics'. In broad lines it means that one can never create the exact same plant, not even from cloning due to differences in treatment, environment, genetic changes in expression.. If I have something unique, the best way to preserve that trait is by cloning. Its never the same, but it's as close as we can biologically get. I don't see anything wrong with that.

Air layering is cloning as well, it's a super sized cutting.

 

[Cadillactaste]

Please read up on the term 'epigenetics'. In broad lines it means that one can never create the exact same plant, not even from cloning due to differences in treatment, environment, genetic changes in expression.. If I have something unique, the best way to preserve that trait is by cloning. Its never the same, but it's as close as we can biologically get. I don't see anything wrong with that.

Air layering is cloning as well, it's a super sized cutting.

When I talked to the guy with the Ohio State degree to treat my front tree with some hormone/chemical treatment last year to change the way it spent its energy...we discussed propagation and...air layering. Guess he is old school...none of his terminology mentioned cloning. He called it propagation of a mother tree. Old school maybe...

 

[Cadillactaste]

We had a micro-trunk injection and growth regulator done to our sentimental tree out front (went to an old email to get the technical name) ...sounds like the guy knew his stuff...BUT...because he didn't use the term cloaning when I touched on cuttings/air layers...must mean he didn't know a hill of beans...eh? Tree is doing amazing though.

 

[rockm]

Please read up on the term 'epigenetics'. In broad lines it means that one can never create the exact same plant, not even from cloning due to differences in treatment, environment, genetic changes in expression.. If I have something unique, the best way to preserve that trait is by cloning. Its never the same, but it's as close as we can biologically get. I don't see anything wrong with that.

Air layering is cloning as well, it's a super sized cutting.

Had actually not thought of that. It seems like a thousand times better solution than what my client proposed to me, and having worked on the particular tree he wants cloned I wouldn't mind having a few pieces myself from that parent stock.

I am for sure going to e-mail the client today and propose this idea. it would have probably taken me a few days to think of that myself. What a helpful chap you are ! Thank you so much for your reply !!!

Hey!! I suggested that at the beginning, just didn't say it as well...;-)

 

[Stillwater]

You're all welcome to take over the thread and have a pages long debate on genetic theory if you feel that is the most productive use of your day. I got the solution I was looking for from a very helpful member @wireme.

Unfortunately there is no means for me to change the title of the thread to DNA, Genetic Theory & Cloning Speculation so if you want your conversation to stay on topic, you may want to start your own thread.

 

[Cadillactaste]

A variable I didn't consider...this poster has an amazing talent for growing out bonsai. That could be where this also stems...

Would love to see your trees. I bet that was a persuading factor for the offer of your hand in ground growing...beyond the land itself.

After all...we do like having contacts. Scott Lee is my go to...but one can never have to many.

 

[Cadillactaste]

You're all welcome to take over the thread and have a pages long debate on genetic theory if you feel that is the most productive use of your day. I got the solution I was looking for from a very helpful member @wireme.

Unfortunately there is no means for me to change the title of the thread to DNA, Genetic Theory & Cloning Speculation so if you want your conversation to stay on topic, you may want to start your own thread.

Scratching head...didn't you try and educate me...on those same principles!?! In this very thread...

Thinking...I may be on ignore by now. Must have been my poor use of grammer. <--- that one was just for you. In case I am not. ? Notice smiley...text is light hearted.

No hard feelings... shake it off. Seen your video on "It's okay to suck" ... worth a share.

https://www.stillwaterbonsai.com/Blog/vlog-episode-3-bonsai-its-ok-suck

 

[rockm]

Apparently I am on ignore too. He looks to have missed my suggestion from the ouset that maybe selling what his client wants to clone might be a more efficient method. See what happens when you get your panties in a bunch?

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

Hey!! I suggested that at the beginning, just didn't say it as well...;-)

It was a good suggestion! I must have missed it. Excuse me for that!

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

When I talked to the guy with the Ohio State degree to treat my front tree with some hormone/chemical treatment last year to change the way it spent its energy...we discussed propagation and...air layering. Guess he is old school...none of his terminology mentioned cloning. He called it propagation of a mother tree. Old school maybe...

Talk to me about that. I've been experimenting with the stuff for a few years, with a lot of poor results and a few very awesome results.
All of those experiments were done with my own money and my own plants, so I can talk freely about it and I know a few sources of information to get you going if you'd like. Shoot me a PM and tell me what you want to achieve, maybe I can point you in the right direction.

 

[Mr.E]

If your new avenue doesn't pan out, in the floor covering business when we have a job that is hard to bid, for one reason or another, we go with a time and material contract. Usually with a not to exceed of what we think the highest amount would be.

 

[Cadillactaste]

Talk to me about that. I've been experimenting with the stuff for a few years, with a lot of poor results and a few very awesome results.
All of those experiments were done with my own money and my own plants, so I can talk freely about it and I know a few sources of information to get you going if you'd like. Shoot me a PM and tell me what you want to achieve, maybe I can point you in the right direction.

Sorry, I paid for a product, I personally didn't do it. My tree was needing pruned back each year the past few years just growing crazy more than normal. He offered the treatment...last year it didn't grow/push as much as it had in the past alarming prior years...but was gorgeous. This year...still dormant. But was impressed at the more controlled growth pattern seen after the treatment. I posted the treatment of what they did after this post...the base of the tree was darkened from the treatment...a bit alarming. But...it hasn't looked that good in years.