Specimen Bonsai...who buys them?

[MMJNICE]

Look at them:

View attachment 586035

The total market value of them all is less than one of those specimen, but I know how to keep them alive and enjoy them and their care and progression more than I would with one of those. I think I said enough.

Idk some of your trees look like they could Fetch a pretty penny..well Groomed and trained with care and time put in. I would think you could get at least 2 two so called "Specimen" trees if you sold your collection... have you seen the retail prices of tree's lately hehehehe.. but seriously your collection looks very charming.. and hell maybe I don't know what a show tree really costs... What kinda prices do they run out of Curiosity because im thinking a show tree ,,,say something that could be shown at a national show would only cost $1500,,, to 15000 dollars or possibly more but I don't really run in them circles admittedly. Would something like a show cotoneaster costs over 2k normally?

 

[MMJNICE]

The more I get into this hobby I have come to realize that to have Certain things or Certain trees you have to Either Buy them ,,,or be gifted them because at my age" 46" i may not have time to develop a tree that i Invision in my mind. I bought a 35 year old black pine for a larger amount then I've ever spent on one tree because I for one don't have the Knowledge to make it myself and More importantly i don't have the time to make something that advanced in the years I have left in this world. You will never be able to work on world class tree's if you don't buy them because most likely you don't have the time to make something like that yourself. That is the reason I'm willing to drop 1k 2k and 3k on a tree. If I could make it myself I wouldn't be buying it. Some trees you will never be able to build in one life time. That is what real bonsai is about,, passing your tree to the next man or women to further the Design. So if you do a good job the price may be more then a beginner can often afford or that a beginner will feel comfortable buying and that's somewhat by design because beginners may kill your tree once they get their hands on it. And someone is less likely to kill something if they drop a large amount of cash on it so it rolls around back to money.

 

[rockm]

This is sort of what I'm talking about. That might be fine in the Japanese culture, but it absolutely does not jibe with Western (especially American) values. If we're talking about what distinguishes American bonsai from Asian bonsai, I would say it's the emphasis on DIY. Part of that is out of necessity, since we don't have a bonsai industry like Japan, but part of it is also baked into American values. Bonsai is for everyone, and anyone can learn how to do it and enjoy it.

I think that might be what Fidur was getting at. He likes that his trees are all his own, even if he could afford to buy nicer trees grown by others.

Isn’t capitalism part of the American way as well. Can’t have it both ways. You buy something it’s yours. You can be transparent about lineage and history if you choose to show it. If you don’t show it who cares? if you ask me the DIY mindset has held us bonsai back for decades. Back in the day 30 years back DIY was king the trees were shitty and there wasn’t much progress in quality for quite a while because people were either mesmerized by Japanese and Asian species and tradition or aimed to become some sort of self taught American Bonsai Hero.

Neither trail is completely viable. Taken by themselves they lead to mediocrity and boredom. Believe me I was one of those people who swore to be a ‘mercun bonsai pioneer. Found out that good trees come from everywhere including DIY trees (but the vast majority of those will remain DIY projects for their entire lives if they’re owned by one person who works on nothing else.

 

[yashu]

Isn’t capitalism part of the American way as well. Can’t have it both ways. You buy something it’s yours. You can be transparent about lineage and history if you choose to show it. If you don’t show it who cares? if you ask me the DIY mindset has held us bonsai back for decades. Back in the day 30 years back DIY was king the trees were shitty and there wasn’t much progress in quality for quite a while because people were either mesmerized by Japanese and Asian species and tradition or aimed to become some sort of self taught American Bonsai Hero.

A continuation on that thought; I’m not sure that the DIY mindset held us back per se, bonsai just has not been practiced in any serious way in this country for the same amount of time that it has in Japan. The trees that were those DIY projects, the ones that survived, are now coming to their own. Those trees are now 30, 50, 70 years old and just as similarly aged trees in Japan have become highly refined specimen our trees are just beginning to reach that level. We should never expect to have the same amount of old, highly refined trees here that they do there regardless of the DIY mindset or any other reason. Age is one of the most important factors in an outstanding tree and time is the only thing that can effect that factor.

 

[yashu]

Also, with regard to who’s name is on a tree that places in the Kokufuten, those in the know, the ones who such things matter to, they definitely know the provenance of that tree and who has cared and worked on that tree regardless of the name on the placard. You know when Morimae Seiji walks through the isles of Kokufu, he knows whose hands have touched that tree. You don’t see Kimura, Kobayashi or Urushibata fretting over if their names are on all the trees they work on (though that’s probably as much a product of collective type societies versus individualist societies).

 

[rockm]

A continuation on that thought; I’m not sure that the DIY mindset held us back per se, bonsai just has not been practiced in any serious way in this country for the same amount of time that it has in Japan. The trees that were those DIY projects, the ones that survived, are now coming to their own. Those trees are now 30, 50, 70 years old and just as similarly aged trees in Japan have become highly refined specimen our trees are just beginning to reach that level. We should never expect to have the same amount of old, highly refined trees here that they do there regardless of the DIY mindset or any other reason. Age is one of the most important factors in an outstanding tree and time is the only thing that can effect that factor.

SOME of those trees are coming into their own. Not many. A second and third generation of Japanese educated practitioners and their students are making trees now that won’t take 30 some odd years to become half way decent. The new generation has lapped the DIYers of 30 years ago two or three times now.

Age is hardly the most important factor in creating a bonsai. Yeah it helps but it’s mostly only patina on work underneath. If the work is faulty (as was the vast majority of DIY trees from 30 years ago) the the bonsai is like a 40 year old Yugo car. Crummy chassis that is an old curiosity.

 

[yashu]

SOME of those trees are coming into their own. Not many. A second and third generation of Japanese educated practitioners and their students are making trees now that won’t take 30 some odd years to become half way decent. The new generation has lapped the DIYers of 30 years ago two or three times now.

Age is hardly the most important factor in creating a bonsai. Yeah it helps but it’s mostly only patina on work underneath. If the work is faulty (as was the vast majority of DIY trees from 30 years ago) the the bonsai is like a 40 year old Yugo car. Crummy chassis that is an old curiosity.

Yes, SOME of the trees. You don’t think there are shit trees in Japan? Do I dare say the majority of all trees in Japan? No matter what country you’re in, most of the trees in any amateur practitioners garden are not going to be show material. The amount of high level trees anywhere is just a general factor of the number of people practicing the art/hobby/pasttime/vocation.

The new(er) generation of practitioners here are definitely keeping pace. @Eric Schrader is producing very high quality JBP in very short time. These trees aren’t going to take X number of years either. I have no doubt many of his trees will go on to be great trees. He’s not the only one either.

Age is absolutely an important factor. Any two trees with similar treatment and care, the older will almost always have more character. It is important enough that we find every way possible to fake it.

In summary, the “DIY mindset” is not holding anyone back. There are those with that mindset everywhere. There are plenty of valid issues that have “held back” US bonsai (access to material, knowledge of indigenous species, etc) but I don’t think wanting to take your own road has been an overall detriment.

Finally it’s worth noting that both high level US and Japanese practitioners have stated that some of the best trees have been found in the back yards of hobbyists.

 

[rockm]

Yes, SOME of the trees. You don’t think there are shit trees in Japan? Do I dare say the majority of all trees in Japan? No matter what country you’re in, most of the trees in any amateur practitioners garden are not going to be show material. The amount of high level trees anywhere is just a general factor of the number of people practicing the art/hobby/pasttime/vocation.

The new(er) generation of practitioners here are definitely keeping pace. @Eric Schrader is producing very high quality JBP in very short time. These trees aren’t going to take X number of years either. I have no doubt many of his trees will go on to be great trees. He’s not the only one either.

Age is absolutely an important factor. Any two trees with similar treatment and care, the older will almost always have more character. It is important enough that we find every way possible to fake it.

In summary, the “DIY mindset” is not holding anyone back. There are those with that mindset everywhere. There are plenty of valid issues that have “held back” US bonsai (access to material, knowledge of indigenous species, etc) but I don’t think wanting to take your own road has been an overall detriment.

Finally it’s worth noting that both high level US and Japanese practitioners have stated that some of the best trees have been found in the back yards of hobbyists.

Not true about the older tree always having more character. Some old trees are just old nothing remarkable about them. The LOOK of age depends on many things environment being an important one. I’ve collected trees that looked very old but upon topping them and counting rings they’re not nearly as old as they appear. The same species on the other side of the hill are old but look younger. Actual Age doesn’t really come into play affect unless your talking ancient like over 100-150 years. Then a given tree may look old.

And the DYI thing has been an anchor on us bonsai up until BETTER MATERIAL became available and people with detailed taught accurate knowledge worked them. All you have to do is go back and look at western bonsai books and magazines from the 80s and 90s.

The feeling that DIY trees are somehow more authentic and a stubborn goal kept people working on mostly junk Here in the west for years. It was an ego thing. “That tree was bought mine wasn’t therefore mine is better” I was one of those people. I saw what was possible though because I met people who showed me different and weren’t as hung up on the Soup to Nuts approach to making a tree.

Somewhere about twenty years ago or so people began accepting that they weren’t the end all for their trees and getting better material from someone knowledgeable wasn’t a bad thing.

Just as some of the best trees are in the backyard of hobbyists so are the majority of the worst. I’d be willing to bet that the ones with the good trees probably didn’t grow them from seed or a sapling

 

[Gabler]

Yes, SOME of the trees. You don’t think there are shit trees in Japan? Do I dare say the majority of all trees in Japan? No matter what country you’re in, most of the trees in any amateur practitioners garden are not going to be show material. The amount of high level trees anywhere is just a general factor of the number of people practicing the art/hobby/pasttime/vocation.

The new(er) generation of practitioners here are definitely keeping pace. @Eric Schrader is producing very high quality JBP in very short time. These trees aren’t going to take X number of years either. I have no doubt many of his trees will go on to be great trees. He’s not the only one either.

Age is absolutely an important factor. Any two trees with similar treatment and care, the older will almost always have more character. It is important enough that we find every way possible to fake it.

In summary, the “DIY mindset” is not holding anyone back. There are those with that mindset everywhere. There are plenty of valid issues that have “held back” US bonsai (access to material, knowledge of indigenous species, etc) but I don’t think wanting to take your own road has been an overall detriment.

Finally it’s worth noting that both high level US and Japanese practitioners have stated that some of the best trees have been found in the back yards of hobbyists.

Not true about the older tree always having more character. Some old trees are just old nothing remarkable about them. The LOOK of age depends on many things environment being an important one. I’ve collected trees that looked very old but upon topping them and counting rings they’re not nearly as old as they appear. The same species on the other side of the hill are old but look younger. Actual Age doesn’t really come into play affect unless your talking ancient like over 100-150 years. Then a given tree may look old.

And the DYI thing has been an anchor on us bonsai up until BETTER MATERIAL became available and people with detailed taught accurate knowledge worked them. All you have to do is go back and look at western bonsai books and magazines from the 80s and 90s.

The feeling that DIY trees are somehow more authentic and a stubborn goal kept people working on mostly junk Here in the west for years. It was an ego thing. “That tree was bought mine wasn’t therefore mine is better” I was one of those people. I saw what was possible though because I met people who showed me different and weren’t as hung up on the Soup to Nuts approach to making a tree.

Somewhere about twenty years ago or so people began accepting that they weren’t the end all for their trees and getting better material from someone knowledgeable wasn’t a bad thing.

Just as some of the best trees are in the backyard of hobbyists so are the majority of the worst. I’d be willing to bet that the ones with the good trees probably didn’t grow them from seed or a sapling

This debate is excellent. You're both making interesting arguments without resorting to ad hominem attacks. I do have one question for @rockm, though. It's not to undermine your point, but to figure out how I can advance my own practice of bonsai.

If growing your own trees from seed is not the best source of raw material, then what specifically is the best source of material?

To put that same question a bit differently, every tree came from a seed. It either germinated on its own, or someone planted it. What makes it bad for me to plant that seed myself, instead of buying a tree that someone else planted a long time ago? Is it just a factor of time? If humans lived five hundred years, would your answer be different? Is it a matter of skill in laying the foundation for a future bonsai when the tree is young? If so, then shouldn't it be possible to learn that skill and then succeed at growing trees from seed? You say to start with better material, but what is preventing me from creating my own better material?

Again, I'm not asking a rhetorical question. I really want to know the answer.

 

[pandacular]

All you have to do is go back and look at western bonsai books and magazines from the 80s and 90s.

This is the part that has always stood out to me. I have access to a nearly complete library of American bonsai books. The quantum leap in quality that started in the mid 2000s and continues to accelerate is exceptionally obvious when you look at the historic record. There are a few books from the mid 80s with collections of contemporary trees, including Clark and Voynovich, with photos from the 1987 IBC in MPLS. I just flipped through this book. I counted 3 trees that were any good at all; Dan Robinson’s hinoki—an artist who is nothing if not an outlier—Mas Imazumi’a black pine, and Dick Melaney’s ponderosa. The rest of the trees are junk, more or less. And I happen to know that the ponderosa is dead, didn’t even make it to 1989 according to Larry Jackal who I asked about this tree in particular.

If growing your own trees from seed is not the best source of raw material, then what specifically is the best source of material?

Someone else who grew them from seed who knew what they were doing 20 years ago. It is largely a factor of time, which is money. Really, that’s all there is to this topic.

Though probably the best source for raw materials is air layers, really.

 

[yashu]

Not true about the older tree always having more character. Some old trees are just old nothing remarkable about them. The LOOK of age depends on many things environment being an important one. I’ve collected trees that looked very old but upon topping them and counting rings they’re not nearly as old as they appear. The same species on the other side of the hill are old but look younger. Actual Age doesn’t really come into play affect unless your talking ancient like over 100-150 years. Then a given tree may look old.

I get what you’re saying. My statement was that two trees with identical treatment, i.e. same level of skill from the practitioner, bad or good, environment etc. the older tree will almost always have more character. Point being that all things alike age is just as important as any other factor.

And the DYI thing has been an anchor on us bonsai up until BETTER MATERIAL became available and people with detailed taught accurate knowledge worked them. All you have to do is go back and look at western bonsai books and magazines from the 80s and 90s.

I’m not debating the level of material. Your position is that the “DIY mindset” has been holding US bonsai back. My position is that that’s not the thing that’s holding Bonsai in the states back. There are many more other more significant factors.

The feeling that DIY trees are somehow more authentic and a stubborn goal kept people working on mostly junk Here in the west for years. It was an ego thing. “That tree was bought mine wasn’t therefore mine is better” I was one of those people. I saw what was possible though because I met people who showed me different and weren’t as hung up on the Soup to Nuts approach to making a tree.

I can’t and haven’t argued any of that. I can’t speak to the ego thing as I don’t know if people with the “DIY mindset” believe their trees are better than those created by “bonsai professionals”.

Somewhere about twenty years ago or so people began accepting that they weren’t the end all for their trees and getting better material from someone knowledgeable wasn’t a bad thing.

I just don’t believe that people looked at their trees and thought they were better just because they personally created them. I could be wrong I suppose but it seems a stretch to look at books from any high level practitioners back then and truly believe that your material as a hobbyist is better or more valuable (to anyone but yourself).

Just as some of the best trees are in the backyard of hobbyists so are the majority of the worst.

This is spot on, not debatable

I’d be willing to bet that the ones with the good trees probably didn’t grow them from seed or a sapling

Let’s see the data

 

[Piedmont Bonsai]

I think this tree was at the last national. seedling/cutting to national exhibition in a less than 25 year span doesn’t seem too bad to me

 

[yashu]

View attachment 586292
I think this tree was at the last national. seedling/cutting to national exhibition in a less than 25 year span doesn’t seem too bad to me

That was in the Nationals? I can see Bjorn’s attachment to it as it’s his dad’s tree but it definitely doesn’t feel like a “great” tree to me. The profile is confusing, that big gap in the middle feels really awkward and there’s not much for pads or definition in the branching. Just my opinion and we all know what those are like

 

[JudyB]

The more I get into this hobby I have come to realize that to have Certain things or Certain trees you have to Either Buy them ,,,or be gifted them because at my age" 46" i may not have time to develop a tree that i Invision in my mind. I bought a 35 year old black pine for a larger amount then I've ever spent on one tree because I for one don't have the Knowledge to make it myself and More importantly i don't have the time to make something that advanced in the years I have left in this world. You will never be able to work on world class tree's if you don't buy them because most likely you don't have the time to make something like that yourself. That is the reason I'm willing to drop 1k 2k and 3k on a tree. If I could make it myself I wouldn't be buying it. Some trees you will never be able to build in one life time. That is what real bonsai is about,, passing your tree to the next man or women to further the Design. So if you do a good job the price may be more then a beginner can often afford or that a beginner will feel comfortable buying and that's somewhat by design because beginners may kill your tree once they get their hands on it. And someone is less likely to kill something if they drop a large amount of cash on it so it rolls around back to money.

I totally agree. There is no way I could make a tree in the amount of time I have here on this planet like some of the things that I have bought over the years and continued and bettered.

You are not buying a tree, you are buying time. What you do with it is your contribution.

(Well you ARE buying a tree, but you know what I mean)

 

[JudyB]

View attachment 586292
I think this tree was at the last national. seedling/cutting to national exhibition in a less than 25 year span doesn’t seem too bad to me

Don’t know if this is an actual thing but this is Not a good tree and has no business at the nats.

 

[Gabler]

Someone else who grew them from seed who knew what they were doing 20 years ago. It is largely a factor of time, which is money. Really, that’s all there is to this topic.

You are not buying a tree, you are buying time. What you do with it is your contribution.

So if I don't have money, but I do have time, the best thing for me to do (aside from collecting) is to grow my own trees (and study how to do it correctly).

 

[yashu]

So if I don't have money, but I do have time, the best thing for me to do (aside from collecting) is to grow my own trees (and study how to do it correctly).

That does seem like the moral of the story.

 

[Piedmont Bonsai]

I’m assuming it was at the national. I wasn’t there so i don’t know for sure. I’ve seen it in person several times. It’s a great tree. especially considering its only around 25 years old or so.

 

[JudyB]

View attachment 586296
I’m assuming it was at the national. I wasn’t there so i don’t know for sure. I’ve seen it in person several times. It’s a great tree. especially considering its only around 25 years old or so.

Perhaps like in most cases, pictures don’t really show the tree to best advantage. I still don’t think it’s well made, but that is my opinion. Maybe it was in the sales area?

 

[JudyB]

So if I don't have money, but I do have time, the best thing for me to do (aside from collecting) is to grow my own trees (and study how to do it correctly).

Yes true, but you can’t make a 50+yo tree unless you start very young. I have gone the route of working my way up to fewer better trees over the years, by developing and selling/buying. I don’t feel apologetic at all about my method of elevating my game, but then again, I’ve never purchased a tree more than a few grand, so maybe this convo is about higher dollar trees. But that doesn’t mean if I had the means I wouldn’t go there… if the tree was the right thing. Each person has their own threshold…