Specimen Bonsai...who buys them?

[WIlliam_Butler_Yeets]

there's such a gulf between the prices of "specimen" trees being sold by retailers and buying trees from other people who are just into bonsai, most of my pre-bonsai stock, like 2-3 year old plants, i've bought for somewhere around 15$-30$ each, but i've also bought some more developed stuff, like a decently well-grown 7 year old red pine for $25 at a club meeting

i wouldn't be opposed to dropping a few hundred for some really nicely done tree, especially once i have the appropriate level of skill to make sure it thrives. but i don't ever see myself buying a tree for several thousands of dollars

 

[R0b]

I am in the hobby with my partner and we spend a few thousand a year (lots of pots). We started to buy less in volume but more in quality. So if we would come across a tree we both would like spending thousands on may happy in the comming years.

But there is a big gap between that and some of the prices one sees if the 10s of thousands.

 

[IzzyG]

@IzzyG perhaps you can shed some light on this question?

Fiscally irresponsible people.

 

[Carol 83]

Fiscally irresponsible people.

No offense intended, you just have some pretty epic trees.

 

[Shogun610]

I think that there is a big gap between those who buy and those who create in terms of goal. For it is far more satisfying to me to create or work on a specimen for finished bonsai than it is to purchase a finished tree. That is richer than any person that is fortunate to be rich whether they deserve it or not is another matter.

 

[IzzyG]

On a more serious note, it’s no different than those who spends 6 digits for a vehicle when you can get a fully functional one for 4 digits. Or those who spends tens of millions on ink/pastel/watercolor on canvas.

There’s actual more much inherent value for trees imo.

 

[IzzyG]

No offense intended, you just have some pretty epic trees.

No offense taken at all. My reply was tongue in cheek

 

[tom]

Who buys those expensive trees online? Mostly suckers. They're way overpriced compared to what you can get within the trade. But there are some affluents folks who are into bonsai in the U.S.. I know one fellow who has bought several trees for several thousand dollars, and another fellow who has purchased more than 200 "specimen" trees. Eric Wigert sells quite a few of them.

 

[vp999]

Fiscally irresponsible people.

Izzy is 100% correct . ..At least for my case...

 

[Gabler]

It's a marketing tactic. The "specimen" trees (I hate how that word gets misused) are overpriced to make the other items look cheap by comparison.

 

[RaginCajun]

I know there are several famous American musicians, actors/actresses etc who are into the hobby and who have some really nice trees.
If I were wealthy I would not hesitate to spend the money on specimens.

 

[Shogun610]

It's a marketing tactic. The "specimen" trees (I hate how that word gets misused) are overpriced to make the other items look cheap by comparison.

But people have a different perspective of what is a specimen tree raw material .. for me and I’m sure others on here it’s a collected material or a bonsai that needs restyling etc or developing a tree that has a good trunk or “bones” or something from a nursery that is unique

 

[Srt8madness]

You could literally buy 10+ show quality trees for the price of a new F150 king ranch ($100k). Even more for the price of a C8 vette, and I see those on the road all the time. So spending a few $k on trees every now and then isn't really that crazy.

 

[Srt8madness]

On a more serious note, it’s no different than those who spends 6 digits for a vehicle when you can get a fully functional one for 4 digits. Or those who spends tens of millions on ink/pastel/watercolor on canvas.

There’s actual more much inherent value for trees imo.

LOL I made my post before even seeing this one, but exactly. When you look at some of the hobbies out there, Bonsai ain't so bad.

I think the "shock" comes from the unpredictability of bonsai, i.e. even if an expensive car breaks down, it can be fixed. If a tree dies, it's gone for good, along with the investment.

Of course, that isn't exclusive to bonsai, built drag cars go boom sometimes too...

 

[pandacular]

But people have a different perspective of what is a specimen tree raw material .. for me and I’m sure others on here it’s a collected material or a bonsai that needs restyling etc or developing a tree that has a good trunk or “bones” or something from a nursery that is unique

I think it’s important to recognize the definitions that growers tend to use; buyers can have opinions, but they’re only half the market.

From what I can tell, large growing operations tend to define ‘specimen tree’ as one that they have put any thought or extensive time into (and those are related). In my discussions with large growers, one theme is that if you’re doing 1000 trees, you don’t really spend time on the individual effort of a tree, as the focus is on scale. In this case, the term is well used, as it isn’t necessarily implying a certain value. They don’t call them ‘show trees’ or ‘finished trees’, and I think of it as something of a step between ‘pre-bonsai’ and bonesigh.

The value is implied wholly by the price—if the trees are selling, they’re worth what they’re priced at by definition.

Now, the fact that prices seem to have at least doubled in the last decade is a different topic of discussion.

 

[MMJNICE]

I think it’s important to recognize the definitions that growers tend to use; buyers can have opinions, but they’re only half the market.

From what I can tell, large growing operations tend to define ‘specimen tree’ as one that they have put any thought or extensive time into (and those are related). In my discussions with large growers, one theme is that if you’re doing 1000 trees, you don’t really spend time on the individual effort of a tree, as the focus is on scale. In this case, the term is well used, as it isn’t necessarily implying a certain value. They don’t call them ‘show trees’ or ‘finished trees’, and I think of it as something of a step between ‘pre-bonsai’ and bonesigh.

The value is implied wholly by the price—if the trees are selling, they’re worth what they’re priced at by definition.

Now, the fact that prices seem to have at least doubled in the last decade is a different topic of discussion.

More like Doubled in the last 3-5 years i would say. After covid prices went through the roof!!

 

[shohin_branches]

I have to agree that there is no "finished" tree and a tree in refinement and maintenance takes more work than a tree in development. You can't just skip a year of pruning or wiring for a tree in refinement because you could unbalance years of ramification doing so. You also have significantly more growth points to trim and wire.

Being able to work on specimen trees at my local collection has improved my overall skills a lot but also helped me to see my personal collection as something I should keep manageable. Maintenance only gets more time consuming as your collection matures.

 

[stewarjm192]

Ive met quite a few older folks in the hoby that started in their 30s/40s and after 20-30 years of buying lots and lots of 400-600 material, and growing them, they decided to sell off most of their collections to own a handfull of very high end multi-thousand dollar trees

 

[Gabler]

But people have a different perspective of what is a specimen tree raw material .. for me and I’m sure others on here it’s a collected material or a bonsai that needs restyling etc or developing a tree that has a good trunk or “bones” or something from a nursery that is unique

I think it’s important to recognize the definitions that growers tend to use; buyers can have opinions, but they’re only half the market.

From what I can tell, large growing operations tend to define ‘specimen tree’ as one that they have put any thought or extensive time into (and those are related). In my discussions with large growers, one theme is that if you’re doing 1000 trees, you don’t really spend time on the individual effort of a tree, as the focus is on scale. In this case, the term is well used, as it isn’t necessarily implying a certain value. They don’t call them ‘show trees’ or ‘finished trees’, and I think of it as something of a step between ‘pre-bonsai’ and bonesigh.

The value is implied wholly by the price—if the trees are selling, they’re worth what they’re priced at by definition.

Now, the fact that prices seem to have at least doubled in the last decade is a different topic of discussion.

A specimen is a specific individual. Nothing in the definition implies that it's a good or bad example of its type.

specimen /spĕs′ə-mən/

noun​

1. An individual, item, or part representative of a class or whole. synonym: example.
   Similar: example
2. An organism, part of an organism, or fossil that has been collected and usually preserved, especially for display or scientific research.
3. A sample, as of tissue, blood, or urine, used for analysis and diagnosis.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, 5th Edition • More at Wordnik

Any time you are buying the tree pictured instead of a similar tree picked by the seller, you are buying a specimen. The word does not indicate any level of quality, but it is often misused to mean a good tree instead of a specific tree.

It's just a pet peeve.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Ive met quite a few older folks in the hoby that started in their 30s/40s and after 20-30 years of buying lots and lots of 400-600 material, and growing them, they decided to sell off most of their collections to own a handfull of very high end multi-thousand dollar trees

This concept gets more attractive every year.