Gabler
Masterpiece
I misread that as "a new f*cking ranch," and I was wondering where I could buy a large tract of land for only $100 thousand.
Specimen Bonsai...who buys them?
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I misread that as "a new f*cking ranch," and I was wondering where I could buy a large tract of land for only $100 thousand.
I totally saw that after you mentioned it
Fidur
Chumono
Look at them:
The total market value of them all is less than one of those specimen, but I know how to keep them alive and enjoy them and their care and progression more than I would with one of those. I think I said enough.
The total market value of them all is less than one of those specimen, but I know how to keep them alive and enjoy them and their care and progression more than I would with one of those. I think I said enough.
BrianBay9
Masterpiece
Yeah, but with limited exceptions, trucks don't die if their daily care is not up to snuff.
shohin_branches
Chumono
My urge to save enough for freedom from daily corporate toiling supercedes my need for a multi-thousand dollar tree. Hoping to soft retire at 45 so I can spend more time with bonsai trees.If I had the liquid assets and no pressing financial obligations I would not hesitate to drop several grand on a tree I liked. That said, none of my assets a liquid and I have all the pressing financial obligations
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
While it’s nice to think that cheaper stock will produce great bonsai in 40 years it’s not really true for most people. I have found that investing in more expensive stock trees 35 years ago has produced far more enjoyable trees down the road. To a tree the more expensive developed stock (or even “finished”) trees are better than those I developed from cheap nursery trees. I have only one or two of those cheaper trees left. As I sold most off because they just weren’t worth the trouble
This sounds snobby but for me it’s true. If I had it to do all over again I’d buy ONLY trees that had some predevelopment or more substantial expensive stock trees. Buy the best you can afford. Skip the attitude that if you didn’t do ALL the work, then it’s not worth having or it’s superior to stuff you haven’t worked from the get go. Or that more developed trees don’t require much talent and effort That’s just ego( and in the case of the no-work developed trees) ignorance of not having worked on one
Took me a while to learn that stuff. People who buy expensive trees are mostly NOT checkbook dilettantes with no talent (people being people, some are but the vast majority aren’t). Most have a deep appreciation of bonsai and are extremely capable with care and practices
This sounds snobby but for me it’s true. If I had it to do all over again I’d buy ONLY trees that had some predevelopment or more substantial expensive stock trees. Buy the best you can afford. Skip the attitude that if you didn’t do ALL the work, then it’s not worth having or it’s superior to stuff you haven’t worked from the get go. Or that more developed trees don’t require much talent and effort That’s just ego( and in the case of the no-work developed trees) ignorance of not having worked on one
Took me a while to learn that stuff. People who buy expensive trees are mostly NOT checkbook dilettantes with no talent (people being people, some are but the vast majority aren’t). Most have a deep appreciation of bonsai and are extremely capable with care and practices
Shogun610
Masterpiece
Whatever lol
I hear that. I’m a few years past the 45 mark (not THAT much) and tried the soft retire (four day work week with short hours) but got roped into helping regrow a furniture refinishing business… back to 40 hour workweeks, but at least it’s fun. Still not rolling in enough dough to drop $?k on trees. Maybe once the kids are out of the house.
Gabler
Masterpiece
Pedantic…
…amiright?
Yeesh. Tough crowd.
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
So if I read between the lines—the cost of a bonsai is inversely proportional to the owner knowing how to care for them?
Um. No dude. The cost of a bonsai is directly tied to the ability to care for it. Don’t think so? Tell your wife you just spent $900 on a tree. Then see how fast you learn good bonsai care. It’s either that or explain to your significant other that you spent a grand on a half hours worth of fire wood.
And FWIW this is what my backyard looked like about 15 years ago. Numerous trees. Not enough time to exploit any to their maximum potential. At some point probably in the next four to five years you will start whittling the numbers down either consciously or not in favor of ten or so of your favorites
Fidur
Chumono
I don't want to be confrontational with you, as you are one of the wisest and most respected (by me) members of this community, but you didn't read well between the lines.So if I read between the lines—the cost of a bonsai is inversely proportional to the owner knowing how to care for them?
Um. No dude. The cost of a bonsai is directly tied to the ability to care for it. Don’t think so? Tell your wife you just spent $900 on a tree. Then see how fast you learn good bonsai care. It’s either that or explain to your significant other that you spent a grand on a half hours worth of fire wood.
And FWIW this is what my backyard looked like about 15 years ago. Numerous trees. Not enough time to exploit any to their maximum potential. At some point probably in the next four to five years you will start whittling the numbers down either consciously or not in favor of ten or so of your favorites
I said what I said, which is that I enjoy caring for my group of very cheap trees more than caring for a single "specimen".
I am retired, single, and wealthy enough to buy 10 or more of those expensive specimens and it wouldn't hurt my finances, but I wouldn't be enjoying the bonsai as much as I am now with my plants from the garden center
Canada Bonsai
Chumono
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As a vendor, I can tell you that here in North America the buyers are extremely diverse. Certain professions re-occur more frequently, such as dentists, orthodontists, and surgeons, but they still make up only a small fraction of the kinds of people interested in these kinds of trees and in many cases I actually don't know what people do for a living (if it's not in their email signature, I don't know unless I recognize their name!). I have sold to bonsai professionals and hobbyists, public bonsai collection and gardens, garden centres, actors, musicians/singers, stand-up comedians, executives, investment/asset managers, real estate brokers, and NFL, NHL, and MLB players...
In any one of these categories the person might be very qualified to care for the tree themselves, or not at all. Some people are professionals or high-level hobbyists themselves; others are 'in training' or have a professional close at hand to help with the care of the tree; others have the tree at their place and have a professional come care for it on-site as needed; others keep their trees in the hands of a bonsai professional and have the tree brought to their house on special occasion and/or prepared towards exhibition, etc. The situations/scenarios vary widely.
There are a ton of ways to come at this thing we all do. Some people buy the tree just to look at and enjoy being around. They have the financial ability to hire out the care and maintenance of the plant so they don’t really ever interact with it in any other way than just raw appreciation. I don’t think that’s any more or less valid then buying nursery stock for the enjoyment of the process of creation. For many great trees, probably more so in Japan, many hands touch a great tree before its great (unless it’s yamadori) so there is value in being the first or any part of the process of any given tree as long as you enjoy what you’re doing.
I guess I just kind of reiterated what you were saying.
you were posting as I was writing.
IzzyG
Shohin
Whenever the price of trees gets discussed, the argument of “deserving” or “checkbook writers” or “more rewarding creating than buying” always gets brought up at nauseam(despite the original OP not even asking about that)
To simply answer the original question; it’s what the market will bear. There’s obviously buyers who see the value and are able/willing to spend. It’s not unique to the bonsai market. I’m definitely one who has and will pay thousands(tens actually) for a tree that I personally see value in. They don’t even have to be “bonsai” yet. Heck, I’m 6 digits in, for a group of Yamadori I purchased last fall that aren’t even ready for 2 more years. I guess I better go learn how to be deserving of them
To simply answer the original question; it’s what the market will bear. There’s obviously buyers who see the value and are able/willing to spend. It’s not unique to the bonsai market. I’m definitely one who has and will pay thousands(tens actually) for a tree that I personally see value in. They don’t even have to be “bonsai” yet. Heck, I’m 6 digits in, for a group of Yamadori I purchased last fall that aren’t even ready for 2 more years. I guess I better go learn how to be deserving of them
JeffS73
Shohin
I think @yashu summed up my thoughts on this best so far. 'Specimen' is also very much a word from selling garden trees (at least in the UK), and maybe shorthand for 'Quality'. Bonsai, like painting encompasses the whole range from elementary school to Michelangelo, for those with an eye to see.
One of the joys of bonsai is that anyone can take a seed and grow a tree, sometimes a very good tree. A fireman might take the time and find multi hundred year old yamadori and turn them into great trees. There are trees in Asia that have been cared for in pots for generations and generations of people, across wealth and class boundaries, through a shared love of what that means, as well as aesthetics. People who talk to those owners and buy those trees Get It.
I'm kind of like that with pots. I wear £50 shoes but I have a couple of pots that cost more than my first car, those pots will go back into circulation at some point, but for now they're enriching my life and those I share them with, that value is harder to judge.
One of the joys of bonsai is that anyone can take a seed and grow a tree, sometimes a very good tree. A fireman might take the time and find multi hundred year old yamadori and turn them into great trees. There are trees in Asia that have been cared for in pots for generations and generations of people, across wealth and class boundaries, through a shared love of what that means, as well as aesthetics. People who talk to those owners and buy those trees Get It.
I'm kind of like that with pots. I wear £50 shoes but I have a couple of pots that cost more than my first car, those pots will go back into circulation at some point, but for now they're enriching my life and those I share them with, that value is harder to judge.
Viewing “specimen” trees online actually caused me a good deal of confusion on the process. “Specimen” from a “reputable shop” gave me the impression of something more finished and that’s just not the case - definitely not in lower price points.
Bonsai has the potential of being an expensive pursuit. Nothing snobby about that. just is what it is. I can’t personally swing it, but if I could I’d build a home that my wife showed on real housewives of Dubai that has an indoor/outdoor area in the middle where they keep their “bonsai”. Then I could probably get the 55 corvette I’ve been dreaming of.
To quote from history of the world - “it’s good to be the king”.
Bonsai has the potential of being an expensive pursuit. Nothing snobby about that. just is what it is. I can’t personally swing it, but if I could I’d build a home that my wife showed on real housewives of Dubai that has an indoor/outdoor area in the middle where they keep their “bonsai”. Then I could probably get the 55 corvette I’ve been dreaming of.
To quote from history of the world - “it’s good to be the king”.
Gabler
Masterpiece
When we're talking about "checkbook bonsai," I think part of the issue is credit. Let's say hypothetically I grew a tree from seed for thirty years, and I entered it into the national show when it was ready. Then, let's say Joe Schmoe from Kalamazoo spent six figures on a tree developed for a decade by Kimura. Joe Schmoe comes in first place, and my tree is second place. Did I lose to Joe Schmoe, or did I lose to Kimura?
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