Gallery of some really crappy trees

[Ang3lfir3]

Do you guys frequent Oregon Bonsai or is there history there?

I don't ... won't shop there (for now).... for my own reasons... that don't need to be drug out into the forums (they are however personal reasons and may no longer be applicable)

 

[Mystogan]

and you wonder why beginners have to resort to buying home depot crap. bonsai nurseries dont sell cheap and regular nursery material isnt always optimal. i think the best source for beginners should be other bonsai enthusiasts like yourself vance to provide them with better material but instead most of you over value even your crappiest crap.

as for people that are thinking of selling one of their trees i really hope you sell them for a fair price. its not hard to find out what you should be selling them for. im all for making money from all the hard work that someone puts in but it also wouldnt be right to rip people off.

First of all I don't consider my trees masterpieces----not yet but certainly not now.

Secondly I never assess anyone's trees unless requested to do so.

The only time I go anywhere close to doing that is when a beginner comes on the site with one of their treasures I will point out what's wrong with the tree or the choice or both, but when people put up a really bad tree I say nothing about it, and that's a fact. As to the value of the Blue Spruce. My father taught me that a thing is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. This individual thought it was worth $2000 bucks therefore to him it is worth $2000 bucks. To me it is priceless because I am not willing to sell it. It's not finished yet and I am not yet finished with it.

As to the reason for this thread is because it was requested of me. The title may be provocative in a funny way but not nasty or rude.---nasty or rude to who? Me?

As kind of a side note here is another tree: A Scots Pine, $8.00 nursery tree I was offered $300 for

 

[Vance Wood]

and you wonder why beginners have to resort to buying home depot crap. bonsai nurseries dont sell cheap and regular nursery material isnt always optimal. i think the best source for beginners should be other bonsai enthusiasts like yourself vance to provide them with better material but instead most of you over value even your crappiest crap.

as for people that are thinking of selling one of their trees i really hope you sell them for a fair price. its not hard to find out what you should be selling them for. im all for making money from all the hard work that someone puts in but it also wouldnt be right to rip people off.

You might note that in the two specific cases mentioned here I never sold the trees, I said I was offered specific amounts for them. It is obvious you would not offer those prices or purchase those trees for the prices forwarded. That's your choice to do or not to do. Question: What is a fair price for years of care and work?

As to nurseries: I seldom if ever find anything of worth in Home Depot, Lowes or any other chain big box store. When asked, I always tell people to go to locally owned nurseries, aka the Mom and Pop nurseries. Mom and Pop can't afford to blow out stock because they don't want to carry things over the winter. Because of the cost of inventory it is necessary for them to keep their stock year after year. Sometimes this causes the trees to become more bonsai compatible.

The big box stores do blow things out or throw things out and take a corporate loss but they don't carry the same tree year after year.

As far as me over valuing my crappiest crap, I put a value on things I sell where I think they should be. I don't put out pit traps and force people to buy things, I don't use dancing girls, free drinks, and I certainly don't have a hard sell technique. The bottom line is if people see a tree I am selling and they don't have trouble with the price they buy it, other wise they walk away. Note here I only sell at a couple of shows a year, it's not like I make my living this way.

Let me ask you another question: If I go out in the woods and collect a tree what is the value of that tree? It did not cost me anything bus gas and time. My point is that you cannot put a value on a tree based on what it cost you. Bonsai is based on providing potential, that the buyer can see. Here's another point. If I grow a bunch of trees from seed for ten-twenty years what value do I put on those? Do I give them away just because on an item by item accounting the trees individually cost me pennies? Or do I assign a dollar a year value added?

One last thing: Could you post some pictures of your trees? I would like to see if you are speaking from experience or not. I have answered a host of questions from you I think you owe me at least that.

By the way I don't rip people off.

 

[Mystogan]

matter of fact yes i am speaking from experience. heres a tree that was sold to me by a club member for 400 dollars. when i asked him for how much he said he was once offered 400 for it so how about 400. me being a beginner i said ok sure i guess. a month later i really thought him an asshole for ripping me off. ...and judging from your posts yes you probably would rip people given the chance.

and i never said you value your trees for what it cost you. for example your spruce that cost you 15 bucks that you think is worth 2000 well its not. i value it by its quality and i would say and other have as well on this thread, would probably cost a hundred to two.

as for growing things from seed and 15 dollar trees as well i advice against it for the fact that you probably wont get far with them and if you do it would take three times longer or more. your method of buying 15 dollar trees are what bonsai nurseries are for. they buy seed or seedlings, grow it out for 15 or so years as pre bonsai and sell it to us enthusiasts. they do it in a larger scale and that how they make their money. and they do probably charge more than the two hundred your spruce is worth because these trees would be further along than your crap.

You might note that in the two specific cases mentioned here I never sold the trees, I said I was offered specific amounts for them. It is obvious you would not offer those prices or purchase those trees for the prices forwarded. That's your choice to do or not to do. Question: What is a fair price for years of care and work?

As to nurseries: I seldom if ever find anything of worth in Home Depot, Lowes or any other chain big box store. When asked, I always tell people to go to locally owned nurseries, aka the Mom and Pop nurseries. Mom and Pop can't afford to blow out stock because they don't want to carry things over the winter. Because of the cost of inventory it is necessary for them to keep their stock year after year. Sometimes this causes the trees to become more bonsai compatible.

The big box stores do blow things out or throw things out and take a corporate loss but they don't carry the same tree year after year.

As far as me over valuing my crappiest crap, I put a value on things I sell where I think they should be. I don't put out pit traps and force people to buy things, I don't use dancing girls, free drinks, and I certainly don't have a hard sell technique. The bottom line is if people see a tree I am selling and they don't have trouble with the price they buy it, other wise they walk away. Note here I only sell at a couple of shows a year, it's not like I make my living this way.

Let me ask you another question: If I go out in the woods and collect a tree what is the value of that tree? It did not cost me anything bus gas and time. My point is that you cannot put a value on a tree based on what it cost you. Bonsai is based on providing potential, that the buyer can see. Here's another point. If I grow a bunch of trees from seed for ten-twenty years what value do I put on those? Do I give them away just because on an item by item accounting the trees individually cost me pennies? Or do I assign a dollar a year value added?

One last thing: Could you post some pictures of your trees? I would like to see if you are speaking from experience or not. I have answered a host of questions from you I think you owe me at least that.

By the way I don't rip people off.

 

[Vance Wood]

matter of fact yes i am speaking from experience. heres a tree that was sold to me by a club member for 400 dollars. when i asked him for how much he said he was once offered 400 for it so how about 400. me being a beginner i said ok sure i guess. a month later i really thought him an asshole for ripping me off. View attachment 20140 ...and judging from your posts yes you probably would rip people given the chance.

and i never said you value your trees for what it cost you. for example your spruce that cost you 15 bucks that you think is worth 2000 well its not. i value it by its quality and i would say and other have as well on this thread, would probably cost a hundred to two.

as for growing things from seed and 15 dollar trees as well i advice against it for the fact that you probably wont get far with them and if you do it would take three times longer or more. your method of buying 15 dollar trees are what bonsai nurseries are for. they buy seed or seedlings, grow it out for 15 or so years as pre bonsai and sell it to us enthusiasts. they do it in a larger scale and that how they make their money. and they do probably charge more than the two hundred your spruce is worth because these trees would be further along than your crap.

As I mentioned earlier I never had that Spruce for sale I WAS OFFERED $2000 DOLLARS FOR IT do you get the distinction? As the tree being worth $200 if you think that's what it worth and you offered me $200 for it I would tell what I told you earlier: The pot alone is worth $200, it's a Sara Raynor pot.

Much of what I get and develop for sale cannot be purchased at a bonsai nursery. There are two of them here in Michigan that I am aware of and neither of them carry small Pines, or any Pines for that matter. While were at it, from the sources at some of the shows I have been to, much of what the vendors carry is not as good as what I develop but cost many times more. When I vend I try to keep my material in line with what other people carry.

As to growing from seed and cuttings you mention the time. Yes you're right!---So what? Incidentally I grow Shimpakus from cuttings and occasionally I sell them as well. Japanese Maples from seed; I sold all of them and the seeds were a gift. From those seeds I grew 125 trees, some went for over a hundred dollars designed pruned trained and put in a bonsai pot.

I am starting to think this is getting personal again, I thought we agreed not to do that? I would still like to see examples of Your work, not some tree you purchased unless that's all you have, purchased trees, and I'm not critical of that either. My point of bring this up is the fact you seem to find it your place to judge my work (that's OK too) I would just like to know if you understand what it takes to get a tree from point A to point B, or raw material into pre-bonsai.

So let's see: You have called me a crook and a lier so far. Can you come up with something else?

 

[Kevster]

Vance I think your trees look great. I am curious of their dimensions?

 

[Bill S]

Vance fwiw I would put this d bag on ignor, no trees, except for what he got ripped off for, and not much in the way of good info, and believe him he's patting hisself on the back.

Atilla, yamadori can't count in a discussion such as this, by Mystos statements not at all, or at best just as bad as nursery materials, no good roots, not pruned over the years, he gets it both ways.

"specifically the horticultural processes you use shifting root bound garden center stock into progressable bonsai--especially your work with mugos....sigh." - go find someone that has offered as much of this info out there and you are doing well, and it is a huge chunk of bonsai.
Johng seriously, still got a bee in your bonnet a year after seeing something you didn't like, and if Vance got it right on the thread then you need more help then you will get here.

Vance, you have pretty much been nothing less than a mentor to many more than you will ever know, keep up the good work and words, there are MANY here and others in and out that appreciate the time you spend here. We are better for it, and get it.

By the way leaving out the shyte expensive trees sold on ebay, there are a lot of $400-500 nothing but stumps that need to be grown and carved, being sold as quality pre bonsai, that unless you have talent or dumb luck will probably not amount to what a cheap Home Depot tree may. Is it worth more, yes but only due to time spent growing it fat, and not much else.

 

[raydomz]

matter of fact yes i am speaking from experience. heres a tree that was sold to me by a club member for 400 dollars. when i asked him for how much he said he was once offered 400 for it so how about 400. me being a beginner i said ok sure i guess. a month later i really thought him an asshole for ripping me off. View attachment 20140 ...and judging from your posts yes you probably would rip people given the chance.

Do you feel better now?
Live and learn. Get over yourself.

 

[Vance Wood]

Vance fwiw I would put this d bag on ignor, no trees, except for what he got ripped off for, and not much in the way of good info, and believe him he's patting hisself on the back.

Atilla, yamadori can't count in a discussion such as this, by Mystos statements not at all, or at best just as bad as nursery materials, no good roots, not pruned over the years, he gets it both ways.

"specifically the horticultural processes you use shifting root bound garden center stock into progressable bonsai--especially your work with mugos....sigh." - go find someone that has offered as much of this info out there and you are doing well, and it is a huge chunk of bonsai.
Johng seriously, still got a bee in your bonnet a year after seeing something you didn't like, and if Vance got it right on the thread then you need more help then you will get here.

Vance, you have pretty much been nothing less than a mentor to many more than you will ever know, keep up the good work and words, there are MANY here and others in and out that appreciate the time you spend here. We are better for it, and get it.

By the way leaving out the shyte expensive trees sold on ebay, there are a lot of $400-500 nothing but stumps that need to be grown and carved, being sold as quality pre bonsai, that unless you have talent or dumb luck will probably not amount to what a cheap Home Depot tree may. Is it worth more, yes but only due to time spent growing it fat, and not much else.

Thank you for the kind words and the support I appreciate it more than you can know.

 

[Vance Wood]

Do you feel better now?
Live and learn. Get over yourself.

I don't know what I am supposed to have done to this individual, maybe it's a mental association with selling something and his buying something where he feels was a rip off. I don't know, I haven't seen the tree, it appears to be one of those "bonsai nursery Chinese Elms". Anything from a bonsai nursery is just like buying anything anywhere else, you have to have some sort of idea what you are looking for and what to do with it. The fact a club member sold him the tree makes me a little sad.

 

[Smoke]

I agree, I have been trying to make that point for years with little success. There are some that believe coming out to the West Coast is the bonsai equivalent to going to Mecca; it is an obligatory journey. They don't seem to realize the cost involved just to get there and back and the additional cost if you purchase something and have to have it shipped. Couple that with facing the actual cost of the tree you're probably looking at a $5000 dollar tree all things considered. Think off this. Maybe you make it out West and you can't find something really worth droping big bucks for, do you return home empty handed or do you buy something you really didn't want in the hope that somehow you have made the trip worth the effort? Ths is not a rant it is logical thought on an issue without a guarnateed outcome. The only thing guaranteed is the cost of the trip.

What about Gregory Beach Bonsai? I would kill to have that close by.

 

[Vance Wood]

Vance I think your trees look great. I am curious of their dimensions?

Most of them are under 24" tall. The Blue Spruce, that seems to be sticking in some people's throat, is about four feet tall. It is just about the largest tree I have, and one of the heaviest. It's over 100 lbs.

Thank you for your comments on the trees.

 

[Smoke]

buy 50 dollar trees and you'll have a 50 dollar bonsai

people pay 2000 for 15 dollar trees all the time. your tree could be the exception but for the most part you buy cheap material youll get a cheap bonsai.

ok well have him post up the tree he bought for 15 that he was offered 2000 for. maybe itll shut me up

his post make it seem that its possible to buy a 50 dollar nursery tree then train it for 12 years or so and be of the same caliber tree as one that was 2800 and trained for the same amount of time. hardly doubt it

I have no idea who you are, but I can tell you that you are the most uninformed person doing bonsai today. What you start with has nothing tio do with what you end with. In fact in some cases it is better to start from layerings and cuttuing where the future look of the bonsai can be controlled from the beginning. Someone with talent and a couple decades worth of technique under their belt can make beautiful bonsai from absolutely free material. I can also tell you they can and do sell for thousands of dollars.

I will post a gallery of such material that sell for thousands of dollars and for the most part have been made in less than ten years. This is not yamadori material that have huge twisted trunks and massive amounts of deadwood, (though he has many bonsai that do), these are tree that have been started from cuttings.

I have singled out this juniper because I wished to talk about it. This juniper is from a cutting and was brought to this point in 8 years of ground growth. This juniper is known as a "squashed juniper" or "yamadori style" juniper.

 

[Smoke]

Here are some more trees from the same person who is quite famous throughout the US and his trees have finished first at the US National exhibit and our own National Toko Kazari.


Any remarks Mysto?

 

[Attila Soos]

This juniper is from a cutting and was brought to this point in 8 years of ground growth. This juniper is known as a "squashed juniper" or "yamadori style" juniper.

Not to question Jim's abilities, but 8 years seems a bit short to me...unless he uses some super-feeding technique that doubles the growth-rate of the shimpaku. My little shimps grow in the ground for more than 8 years, but the trunks don't look this big.
May be the picture is deceiving, and the trunk looks larger than life?

 

[Smoke]

matter of fact yes i am speaking from experience. heres a tree that was sold to me by a club member for 400 dollars. when i asked him for how much he said he was once offered 400 for it so how about 400. me being a beginner i said ok sure i guess. a month later i really thought him an asshole for ripping me off. View attachment 20140 ...and judging from your posts yes you probably would rip people given the chance.

and i never said you value your trees for what it cost you. for example your spruce that cost you 15 bucks that you think is worth 2000 well its not. i value it by its quality and i would say and other have as well on this thread, would probably cost a hundred to two.

as for growing things from seed and 15 dollar trees as well i advice against it for the fact that you probably wont get far with them and if you do it would take three times longer or more. your method of buying 15 dollar trees are what bonsai nurseries are for. they buy seed or seedlings, grow it out for 15 or so years as pre bonsai and sell it to us enthusiasts. they do it in a larger scale and that how they make their money. and they do probably charge more than the two hundred your spruce is worth because these trees would be further along than your crap.

It looks to me that the only stupid person in this transaction was you. Do you have no idea about value of things? Hell I wouldn't have paid twenty dollars for that even for a yard tree.

You aren't getting taken to the cleaners anymore are you? Otherwise.... it may be worth my while to drive to where you are so I can unload some stuff. Looks to me you have more money than brains.

 

[Attila Soos]

BTW, I think that it's very unfair to put Vance under such a scrutiny, he did more than enough to gain nothing but respect from anyone here. Enough with these attacks, already.

 

[Smoke]

Not to question Jim's abilities, but 8 years seems a bit short to me...unless he uses some super-feeding technique that doubles the growth-rate of the shimpaku. My little shimps grow in the ground for more than 8 years, but the trunks don't look this big.
May be the picture is deceiving, and the trunk looks larger than life?

This tree was at REB's about 5 years ago. I asked Jim about the tree. He said he dug it out of the ground after 8 years. It took about two years to do the shari, which he did in a container.

The trees he used at the Shihin convention two years ago were about this size. It was a two day workshop. He also said those trees were about 8 years old.

I have no idea either cause mine don't grow that fast. Course I don't have mine in the ground either. I have good luck growing other things with great speed though.

 

[Smoke]

Not to question Jim's abilities, but 8 years seems a bit short to me...unless he uses some super-feeding technique that doubles the growth-rate of the shimpaku. My little shimps grow in the ground for more than 8 years, but the trunks don't look this big.
May be the picture is deceiving, and the trunk looks larger than life?

How big do you think this tree is?

 

[Attila Soos]

How big do you think this tree is?

Good question.

No smaller than 8 inches???? - from the base of the tree.
(Of course, when categorizing into shohin, etc, the height is measured from the base of the pot)