Gallery of some really crappy trees

[Ang3lfir3]

answer: vance's trees so long as theyre not priced for 2000. most nurseries will or should have em for a couple of hundred bucks give or take

I can tell you that YOUR local bonsai nursery would sell lesser trees for more ... I know because I shop there ... (good or bad... that's just the way it is ... and why I mostly buy pots from them)

that opens a whole other issue... of the drop in quality of many bonsai nurseries ... there are a great deal of them that are top notch... but I am seeing the quality fall at some of them while the prices rise (deflation and inflation at the same time!)

 

[Vance Wood]

I can tell you that YOUR local bonsai nursery would sell lesser trees for more ... I know because I shop there ... (good or bad... that's just the way it is ... and why I mostly buy pots from them)

that opens a whole other issue... of the drop in quality of many bonsai nurseries ... there are a great deal of them that are top notch... but I am seeing the quality fall at some of them while the prices rise (deflation and inflation at the same time!)

Trying to make a decent living at bonsai has to be difficult to impossible, the over-head is -----well--- out of reach. When one considers all of the things necessary to maintain the health of the stock you are trying to sell and of course the business has to obtain the material to sell to you, over all costs mount up pretty fast.

Incidentally I found a more current picture of the Spruce from the show where I was offered 2K for the tree.

 

[tmmason10]

View attachment 20129

Trying to make a decent living at bonsai has to be difficult to impossible, the over-head is -----well--- out of reach. When one considers all of the things necessary to maintain the health of the stock you are trying to sell and of course the business has to obtain the material to sell to you, over all costs mount up pretty fast.

Incidentally I found a more current picture of the Spruce from the show where I was offered 2K for the tree.

That's a nice tree Vance, a nice natural feeling to it. Certainly not crap.

 

[johng]

It's peculiar that you would make this comment to me when I have attacked no one.

You've attacked no one in this thread, and maybe not even recently, but you are certainly guilty of attacking others in the past! So, can you really say that in good conscience? I think that is what most of these new folks don't get is that reputations on this site are earned over the course of time...what comes around, goes around! I really don't feel at all for you because you knew damn well what this thread would turn into before you ever posted it here...

BTW...I noticed none of the pics you originally posted are any more recent than 09...most 07 and 06...Are these trees still in your collection?

 

[rich415]

i never said dont buy cheap material as i have a few myself. but i know that theyll amount to no more than decent little trees even after training em for 20 years certainly not $2000 dollar trees. and when i say cheap i meant the 15 dollar material that vance is talking about. I personally think spending a couple hundred bucks for one good pre bonsai is better than buying 5 or 6 home depot crap.

Agreed. Home Depot is no place to find material. But there are bonsai nurseries out here that sell great material in the $50-$100 range. Johnny Uchida at grove Way bonsai nursery in hayward sells some imported stuff from $100 (and up of course).

Rich

 

[Attila Soos]

i never said dont buy cheap material as i have a few myself. but i know that theyll amount to no more than decent little trees even after training em for 20 years certainly not $2000 dollar trees. and when i say cheap i meant the 15 dollar material that vance is talking about. i personally think spending a couple hundred bucks for one good pre bonsai is better than buying 5 or 6 home depot crap.

That's a good ballpark number, at least here in So. California. Between $100 and $200 gives you material that can become not just good, but GREAT bonsai, assuming of course that you have a fair amount of talent and put in some good work as well.

On the other hand, Vance did a great job to bring out the best of cheap nursery material. I don't think that anybody I know could have done a better job.

The problem is, that this kind of bonsai has its limitations. They will rarely, if ever, have a chance to be in the same league with a bonsai started from old yamadori. It's not even fair to compare the two.

 

[Vance Wood]

You've attacked no one in this thread, and maybe not even recently, but you are certainly guilty of attacking others in the past! So, can you really say that in good conscience? I think that is what most of these new folks don't get is that reputations on this site are earned over the course of time...what comes around, goes around! I really don't feel at all for you because you knew damn well what this thread would turn into before you ever posted it here...

BTW...I noticed none of the pics you originally posted are any more recent than 09...most 07 and 06...Are these trees still in your collection?

If you want to take a look back at the last ten years you will find that any attack, argument, or "Flame War" was not started by me, but you can believe what you want. No I did not know what this thread would turn into before I posted it, I hoped it would not go here. Of course I said that previously.

I am not having problems moving on but it seems some are not willing to separate me from my friendship with Will Heath. I can't change that nor would I because I don't believe I was wrong in my friendship with the man. I don't care if you feel for me or not.

I don't have many more recent pictures because I have only taken a few recently. I have been out of state more than home for the past two years, but the trees are still in my collection.

 

[Vance Wood]

That's a good ballpark number, at least here in So. California. Between $100 and $200 gives you material that can become not just good, but GREAT bonsai, assuming of course that you have a fair amount of talent and put in some good work as well.

On the other hand, Vance did a great job to bring out the best of cheap nursery material. I don't think that anybody I know could have done a better job.

The problem is, that this kind of bonsai has its limitations. They will rarely, if ever, have a chance to be in the same league with a bonsai started from old yamadori.

You can't throw a Yamadori into the mix here and expect a fair comparison. I did not mean to compare my work to a Yamadori, that's foolishness, in fact I didn't mean to compare my work to anyone or anything. But---I have seen some pretty sad Yamadori, trees collected because they were able to be collected but shouldn't have been. And I have seen some decent Yamadori turned into kindling in an afternoon as I mentioned earlier. Not everyone has access to Yamadori, either because of where they live, their physical condition or the expense of buying one from a third party. My point is in all of this, if you want to do bonsai it is not necessary to spend $100 or $2000 on a tree before you have something worth working on.

I appreciate you recognizing the kind of effort that goes into nursery material and acknowledging it: Thank You.

 

[johng]

If you want to take a look back at the last ten years you will find that any attack, argument, or "Flame War" was not started by me, but you can believe what you want.

You say I can believe what I want because you know You are just plain wrong about that Vance...For example, you attacked me in a thread about containers for forest plantings about a year or so ago...so please stop lying and acting like you are some innocent victim.

I refuse to believe that someone with your experience on this particular forum would have any doubt what you would be in for posting a thread about your "crappy" trees...please Vance, we weren't born yesterday

As to your trees... I would think someone that claims 50 years experience in Bonsai would have been able to develop better trees regardless of their source. For comparison lets think about Bill V.'s collection. Look at what he has done in that same period of time...I know for a fact that many of his trees, including most of his best ones, were started from cuttings and seedlings...not even nursery stock. I wonder if the title you put on this thread is really about what others think of your trees or what you think of them??

Please say what you will but don't expect another reply from me...I am going back to lurking where the idiots like you have driven so many of us.
John

 

[Vance Wood]

You say I can believe what I want because you know You are just plain wrong about that Vance...For example, I refuse to believe that someone with your experience on this particular forum would have any doubt what you would be in for posting a thread about your "crappy" trees...please Vance, we weren't born yesterday

As to your trees... I would think someone that claims 50 years experience in Bonsai would have been able to develop better trees regardless of their source. For comparison lets think about Bill V.'s collection. Look at what he has done in that same period of time...I know for a fact that many of his trees, including most of his best ones, were started from cuttings and seedlings...not even nursery stock. I wonder if the title you put on this thread is really about what others think of your trees or what you think of them??

Please say what you will but don't expect another reply from me...I am going back to lurking where the idiots like you have driven so many of us.
John

Ergo crappy trees----right?

you attacked me in a thread about containers for forest plantings about a year or so ago...so please stop lying and acting like you are some innocent victim.

I attacked you? I don't remember this and why would I? I don't grow forest, I don't have the room. I may have disagree with you but I would not have attacked you. You may have gotten your hackles up over my opinion but it certainly was not an attack. Maybe you could find the post and if I attacked you I will apologize and leave the forum for ever.

I went into the archives and found this: http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?4775-Oval-or-rectangle-Cypress-Forest

Is this the thread you are talking about. I asked a simple question as to why you were using four trees. That was not an attack it was a question. I wanted to know your thinking on the issue because I too am not always fond of "The rules".

I went back an read the entire 4 pages of this thread, and I did not attack you. At one point you said you did not ask my opinion. In that you are wrong. By posting here you are inviting comment and with that, opinion,otherwise why would you post anything?

 

[Klytus]

Lowe's could do more,as could Bunnings.

 

[Ang3lfir3]

View attachment 20129

Trying to make a decent living at bonsai has to be difficult to impossible, the over-head is -----well--- out of reach. When one considers all of the things necessary to maintain the health of the stock you are trying to sell and of course the business has to obtain the material to sell to you, over all costs mount up pretty fast.

Agreed Vance !! it is certainly hard... (one reason why i keep with my day job... ) but a stick in a nursery pot is not worth a lot of the prices they are asking ... I'm not calling ne one out... just making an observation related to some people having unreasonable opinions [unreasonable in my opinion obviously] ...

-- begin rant (unrelated -- kinda)
and to all the Californians who are thinking "OMG its so easy to find great material" ... I want you all to realize that for the rest of the country its not... the sheer size of America is actually a limiting factor to sharing resources across the hobby and a lot of retailers only offer material to those who have the resources to see them in person ... sadly this looses them the business of people like me who have money they want to spend but no time/money to fly 1K miles to come see their stuff....

Luckily I have a grower within 4hrs of my home that I can buy just about anything from... and one closer that I can purchase very limited material from.... and I could my lucky stars to have that...

I almost drove the hour to the local bonsai shop yesterday.... but as I was pretty sure the material available would lack any inspiration and be priced higher than would be reasonable.... I simply decided that I didn't need any more pots... and stayed home (I usually spend on average of 200-300 per visit , but not yesterday ) ....

-- end rant

 

[Vance Wood]

Agreed Vance !! it is certainly hard... (one reason why i keep with my day job... ) but a stick in a nursery pot is not worth a lot of the prices they are asking ... I'm not calling ne one out... just making an observation related to some people having unreasonable opinions [unreasonable in my opinion obviously] ...

-- begin rant (unrelated -- kinda)
and to all the Californians who are thinking "OMG its so easy to find great material" ... I want you all to realize that for the rest of the country its not... the sheer size of America is actually a limiting factor to sharing resources across the hobby and a lot of retailers only offer material to those who have the resources to see them in person ... sadly this looses them the business of people like me who have money they want to spend but no time/money to fly 1K miles to come see their stuff....

Luckily I have a grower within 4hrs of my home that I can buy just about anything from... and one closer that I can purchase very limited material from.... and I could my lucky stars to have that...

I almost drove the hour to the local bonsai shop yesterday.... but as I was pretty sure the material available would lack any inspiration and be priced higher than would be reasonable.... I simply decided that I didn't need any more pots... and stayed home (I usually spend on average of 200-300 per visit , but not yesterday ) ....

-- end rant

I agree, I have been trying to make that point for years with little success. There are some that believe coming out to the West Coast is the bonsai equivalent to going to Mecca; it is an obligatory journey. They don't seem to realize the cost involved just to get there and back and the additional cost if you purchase something and have to have it shipped. Couple that with facing the actual cost of the tree you're probably looking at a $5000 dollar tree all things considered. Think off this. Maybe you make it out West and you can't find something really worth droping big bucks for, do you return home empty handed or do you buy something you really didn't want in the hope that somehow you have made the trip worth the effort? Ths is not a rant it is logical thought on an issue without a guarnateed outcome. The only thing guaranteed is the cost of the trip.

 

[Smoke]

Do you guys frequent Oregon Bonsai or is there history there?

 

[Mystogan]

I don't wish to drag an innocent third party into this but one of our members desired to see some of my trees and I told him that I don't post much anymore because of these type of reactions. It seems to me that of all the people who post on this site I am the only one where posting a masterpiece is required. The responses I seem to get from the legendary and legendary wannabees is decent, mediocre, and cheap. It is true I do not buy finished or semi-finished trees. I have no desire to do that.

We all have our own reasons for doing bonsai. Some want to have these fabulous pieces of art, and others like me, get their kicks out of making them. I don't care if it takes me years to get a tree to a point that maybe I could have purchased from someone else at a price. Bonsai is like sex. Foreplay is often more fun than actually experiencing the little death. In the end the tree, good, bad or indifferent, is all my work.

I know there are people who disdain my sources; the nursery trade, but seldom the big box stores just to clarify things, I am not without my standards.

I have also mentioned this before but I will again because I believe it to be true. With a government agency sticking it's nose into everything we do how long do you think it will be before the nursery trade will be the only source for bonsai material? If the government can put thousands of businesses with thousands of workers and their families out of work and livelihood for the sake of some little-bitty fish they considered endangered, how long do you think they will allow collecting from the Mountains and deserts of North America to continue?

From what I understand, purchasing imported trees is becoming even more difficult than before and it never has been a good way to get material. As to pre-bonsai: if you desire to go this rout you have to remember these supposedly designed for bonsai trees have to have an original source somewhere.

So I guess the question here is: Why would you want to pay a bundle of money to someone to do the kind of stuff to a tree that you could do yourself----or in many cases should do, but don't know how? Sure it's quicker and that's OK, go for it. But try not to be critical of me because I chose to take the longer road.

so i was right then that this thread was not really about showing what can be had for 50 dollars but more you showing your masterpieces? let me ask you this vance and i want your honest honest answer. the trees that you posted do you really consider these as masterpieces? and do you really think that that spruce is worth 2000? be honest vance. youre good at assessing other peoples work lets see you do it with yours

 

[crust]

so i was right then that this thread was not really about showing what can be had for 50 dollars but more you showing your masterpieces? let me ask you this vance and i want your honest honest answer. the trees that you posted do you really consider these as masterpieces? and do you really think that that spruce is worth 2000? be honest vance. youre good at assessing other peoples work lets see you do it with yours

.......Oh boy

 

[Vance Wood]

so i was right then that this thread was not really about showing what can be had for 50 dollars but more you showing your masterpieces? let me ask you this vance and i want your honest honest answer. the trees that you posted do you really consider these as masterpieces? and do you really think that that spruce is worth 2000? be honest vance. youre good at assessing other peoples work lets see you do it with yours

First of all I don't consider my trees masterpieces----not yet but certainly not now.

Secondly I never assess anyone's trees unless requested to do so.

The only time I go anywhere close to doing that is when a beginner comes on the site with one of their treasures I will point out what's wrong with the tree or the choice or both, but when people put up a really bad tree I say nothing about it, and that's a fact. As to the value of the Blue Spruce. My father taught me that a thing is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. This individual thought it was worth $2000 bucks therefore to him it is worth $2000 bucks. To me it is priceless because I am not willing to sell it. It's not finished yet and I am not yet finished with it.

As to the reason for this thread is because it was requested of me. The title may be provocative in a funny way but not nasty or rude.---nasty or rude to who? Me?

As kind of a side note here is another tree: A Scots Pine, $8.00 nursery tree I was offered $300 for

 

[bonsai barry]

I'm not willing to put a price on these trees, but viewing them this morning was a gift to me and I thank you for it.

 

[Vance Wood]

I'm not willing to put a price on these trees, but viewing them this morning was a gift to me and I thank you for it.

Thank you, I'm glad you got something out of them.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

(Q x S) ^ T = BONSAI!

Where
Q = quality of starting material
S = skill of bonsai enthusiast
T = time

Start with excellent material and poor skill... much time needed. Start with poor material but excellent skill... less time needed. Start with excellent materials and NO skill... no amount of time will be enough.

By the way, I think there is such a thing as a bonsai "appreciator" versus a bonsai "enthusiast". Many people with lots of money just want to appreciate bonsai as finished art. They enjoy bonsai as an expression of nature, but can not design a bonsai from scratch material, or perhaps cannot even maintain one. When these people pay lots of money for bonsai, they are basically paying someone else for their design skills (and time). I know some bonsai enthusiasts who pay big money to have bonsai masters come work on their trees every year. I'm fine with that. Personally I enjoy having a vision for my trees and working toward that vision. I don't sell my trees so why do I care what value someone else might put on them?