For BVF and Rockm...a tree without potential?
- Thread starter Poink88
- Start date
Brian Underwood
Chumono
Well, for THIS tree, I personally would have a lot of fun carving it up. Without carving, I would not bother attempting to make something out of it. It would take forever for a wound that size to heal, and another forever to develop a new leader and some taper. I have owned a few cedar elms, and like most in the elm family they backbud easy and grow like crazy. Let it grow out for a season, find your potential branches, front, apex and then go to town with some power tools. Get creative and have some fun. Perhaps some kids turned it into a playhouse with windows? I've never seen that done before. You could even make a little door for it...
jkd2572
Masterpiece
To put in perspective. I have room for two tropicals that I can over winter in the house. If I come across something better i have two get rid of one of the two I already have. I have almost reached capacity for non tropicals as well. If I add in the future I will have to also get rid of some. What do I get rid of? The crap that I acquired when I first started into this hobby and has the least potential.
dick benbow
Omono
the picture reminds me of a project done by kaisan bonsai (Mr potter from the UK) and available for view on you-tube.
As the stump recovered and filled itself with new green, it was laboriously, and gloriously
carved to produce a very interesting piece,
If you don't try, you'll never learn what can be done. It's only as good as the vision you have for it. never say "never"
As the stump recovered and filled itself with new green, it was laboriously, and gloriously
carved to produce a very interesting piece,
If you don't try, you'll never learn what can be done. It's only as good as the vision you have for it. never say "never"
Ron Dennis
Shohin
I think an important point is being overlooked here. What is one's ultimate goal with any tree? Are we working on "a tree" with the intended purpose of being able to exhibit the tree or are we simply enjoying the work being done because it gives us relaxation, or some other need. I see nothing wrong with either view. If we gain pleasure for only ourselves, that is great. For me personally, not that I will ever achieve his expertise, it would really be a great day for me to have BVF or someone else with equal or better talent, walk by one of my trees and tell me they are seeing a lot of progress in my work.
It seems to me as one learns more, gets more involved, sees more high quality trees and generally exposed to higher artistic means, we want to achieve the results others have accomplished.
It seems to me as one learns more, gets more involved, sees more high quality trees and generally exposed to higher artistic means, we want to achieve the results others have accomplished.
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
"But at some point you'll have to reach your limit. Then you'll need to look a piece of material and not ask "does this have any potential?" but rather "does this tree have enough potential to make it worth my time/energy?"
This is exactly the point that should be argued, not that "every tree has potential." This is not about some kind of soul-killing "don't try it" absolute.
Many of us have reached the point at one time or another when we realize that between 75 and 90 percent of the trees we spent a few years amassing weren't going to amount to much (timewise, talent aside). At some point, those of us who have been doing bonsai for longer than say five years or so, began getting rid of all those inferior (yes, inferior) trees because we figured out that spending more and more time on an expanding collection of so-so trees came at the expense of our better trees.
What I said when all this started was simply to not see every major pruning job as an opportunity to get another tree. Learning "lop and forget it" is a discipline that has to be learned if you are to advance in any meanginful way--unless you have a crew of keepers like Walter and Kimura to take care of the mob of lesser material that will accumulate in your backyard.
The message is, sure, go ahead and see what you can do, but realize that no tree is free. You may not pay for it, but it comes with a price tag of your time, patience and at the expense of your other trees. It's up to you to figure out how to balance your own books.
"To say it will take 10 years for this to become descent IMHO is one way but there are means to shorten that. If you think it is BS then wait a few years (a lot less than 10) then tell me that again."
No, probably won't take ten years given the species and your starting point. I've used similar material. This really isn't what we began talking about in the crabapple post, though. It is a big jump from a cutting or air layer of less character to a yamadori-based tree.
This is exactly the point that should be argued, not that "every tree has potential." This is not about some kind of soul-killing "don't try it" absolute.
Many of us have reached the point at one time or another when we realize that between 75 and 90 percent of the trees we spent a few years amassing weren't going to amount to much (timewise, talent aside). At some point, those of us who have been doing bonsai for longer than say five years or so, began getting rid of all those inferior (yes, inferior) trees because we figured out that spending more and more time on an expanding collection of so-so trees came at the expense of our better trees.
What I said when all this started was simply to not see every major pruning job as an opportunity to get another tree. Learning "lop and forget it" is a discipline that has to be learned if you are to advance in any meanginful way--unless you have a crew of keepers like Walter and Kimura to take care of the mob of lesser material that will accumulate in your backyard.
The message is, sure, go ahead and see what you can do, but realize that no tree is free. You may not pay for it, but it comes with a price tag of your time, patience and at the expense of your other trees. It's up to you to figure out how to balance your own books.
"To say it will take 10 years for this to become descent IMHO is one way but there are means to shorten that. If you think it is BS then wait a few years (a lot less than 10) then tell me that again."
No, probably won't take ten years given the species and your starting point. I've used similar material. This really isn't what we began talking about in the crabapple post, though. It is a big jump from a cutting or air layer of less character to a yamadori-based tree.
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Poink88, If I'm not mistaken, were not you one who recently criticized a vendor who was selling bonsai to beginners making false claims about caring for trees???? I would not recommend selling junk material to someone who does not know much about bonsai.
Here is a stump that I think a lot of people would consider w/o potential but I collected it last year partly because I have no idea what I am doing. I held on to it though and plan on experimenting on it.
Can you see some potential on this "junk"? Should it be sold to someone who doesn't know better or just discard it? If I work on this, how long will it take (in your opinion) to turn this around? If this is yours,how will you design this?
I want to hear a good (civil) discussion, both pro and con.
Thank you.
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berobinson82
Omono
"Truth be told, I already did something to this tree after fall...whether it is (one of) the right path or not is the big question. I promise to post a pic after I get more input/opinion."
So did you carve it up?
So did you carve it up?
Poink88
Imperial Masterpiece
Did you read post #2 & #3?
Poink88
Imperial Masterpiece
Nybonsai12
Masterpiece
Alright enough riff raff. Lets see what you did with it! 
tmmason10
Omono
Yeah I agree, I think you've sufficiently gotten everyone's attention.
Poink88
Imperial Masterpiece
I was hoping Brian would weigh in. I am posting via my phone but will post pic once I got home.
Poink88
Imperial Masterpiece
Here it is. It is very rough/ugly and will take a bit of growing before the next phase. Plans are in place to "fix" the scars (as well as the hideous back) but you will have to wait for that .
The plan was good but I did a few shortcuts that caused some extra damage to the tree (my fault entirely). Seems like it survived the "mutilation" and budding now.
For me the lesson learned is the important part and the technique will be used again. I collected 2 with the purpose of giving it same treatment and will be documented for a tutorial.
Please tell me what you think...good or bad. Thank you.
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.The plan was good but I did a few shortcuts that caused some extra damage to the tree (my fault entirely). Seems like it survived the "mutilation" and budding now.
For me the lesson learned is the important part and the technique will be used again. I collected 2 with the purpose of giving it same treatment and will be documented for a tutorial.
Please tell me what you think...good or bad. Thank you.
View attachment 31131
lordy
Omono
Waaay more work than I would ever go to for a piece of landscaping that I would never have dug in the first place. I am somewhat curious as to how the deep V scar will heal with the bolt thru it. ( I assume that is what you did) Kinda curious how you plan to hide the 1/2" hole from that bolt, too.
I was always taught not to collect something unless you A) had a plan for sound styling, and B) were reasonably sure you could get it to thrive in a container. I wont collect just because it's there and available.
I'm of the opinion that huge trunks collected to fast-track a bonsai is not necessarily the best course of action simply to arrive at a huge trunk bonsai. IF it ever really becomes a bonsai, as opposed to a huge trunk short tree in a cement tub. But I'll be interested to see what this becomes, kinda like being interested in the 2-headed calf at the sideshow in a carnival.
I was always taught not to collect something unless you A) had a plan for sound styling, and B) were reasonably sure you could get it to thrive in a container. I wont collect just because it's there and available.
I'm of the opinion that huge trunks collected to fast-track a bonsai is not necessarily the best course of action simply to arrive at a huge trunk bonsai. IF it ever really becomes a bonsai, as opposed to a huge trunk short tree in a cement tub. But I'll be interested to see what this becomes, kinda like being interested in the 2-headed calf at the sideshow in a carnival.
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Poink88
Imperial Masterpiece
I collected it because it will be destroyed (area to be cleared for road construction) and because I liked the nebari.
I agree that it will entail lots of work but I am fine with that. It offers a good learning opportunity. There is a gaping hole/gap between the 2 pieces I need to fix...the hole is very easy compared to that.
Whether it will ever become a bonsai...only time can tell.
Thanks!
I agree that it will entail lots of work but I am fine with that. It offers a good learning opportunity. There is a gaping hole/gap between the 2 pieces I need to fix...the hole is very easy compared to that.
Whether it will ever become a bonsai...only time can tell.
Thanks!
Brian Underwood
Chumono
If those two sides join together, it will be impressive. I don't see why they wouldn't, given enough growing time. Interesting idea. Good luck!
Nybonsai12
Masterpiece
Quite a transformation. Looks like you did a lot of work and it certainly has me interested to see how it develops. Thanks for sharing and good luck with it. I said in th beginning that I didn't see any potential and I hope to be proven wrong.
Smoke
Ignore-Amus
hmmm..... All you need is some wires hooked to that bolt and pray for a lightning storm......
Igor would be proud......
Igor would be proud......
bonhe
Masterpiece
It is a great idea, Poink88! If I was you, I would put something into the gap, like cement, to fill the gap, then wound will heal faster! Your tree will become a nice one later on. Good luck.
Bonhe
Bonhe
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