Bjorn’s Single Flush Pine technique explained!

[Adair M]

Why do you have to shut down the discussion?

Why always taking offense?

Unless you can prove those trees couldn't get to refinement twice as fast using another method, there is nothing for you to say.

@William N. Valavanis was this tree refined in the same manner in NY?

Sorce

I don’t shut down the discussion. I have posted lots of reply’s to people asking intelligent questions and/or asking for clarification.

on the other hand, this is how you act:

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

I was just watching the peter warren stream someone else just posted and he very clearly answered this question in his own way. I’m paraphrasing so watch it for more details. After building up a lot of energy. He says to not touch the candle in spring On branch you need to back bud. Then in July just as it starts to set buds for the following year you completely remove the candle. The energy in the branch now forms buds back down the stem. The in fall prune back to another bud. Of course months and climates are all relative.
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Good info! Can you share the link with me please?
I did follow this technique for a year on multiple specimens, but the results are buds at the tip and the tip only. I'd like those buds to go back just a couple of centimeters, maybe 2017 or 2016 wood. And it's not working! Maybe I'm doing something wrong. A link would be appraciated so I can see if my technique is sound.

Last year I cut some needles in half and every single one of them produced a bud. This makes me wonder if I'm maybe supressing the wrong part of the tree really. I know Vance uses the bowtie technique on mugo sometimes, it might be that the two are connected. Ryan Neil keeps saying that old needles are needed for the auxin supply. So when combining those pieces, I think I might have a puzzle to solve.
Experimenting is already on its way. I selected some branches that need to be removed later anyway, to see what happens.

 

[sorce]

I don’t shut down the discussion. I have posted lots of reply’s to people asking intelligent questions and/or asking for clarification.

on the other hand, this is how you act:

From your throne.

The climate difference needs more adjustment than timing.

That is the needed discussion.

It is not simply a matter of adjusting timing.

No one has anything to say about their opinion on the poodled look?

Sorce

 

[sorce]

Along with climate limitations....

I believe different trees can be treated in different manners to be primely displayed at a certain time.

A tree to be displayed in spring should have a different regiment than one displayed in fall. But we blanket them.

More detail. Not less.

Sorce

 

[Adair M]

Along with climate limitations....

I believe different trees can be treated in different manners to be primely displayed at a certain time.

A tree to be displayed in spring should have a different regiment than one displayed in fall. But we blanket them.

More detail. Not less.

Sorce

in Bjorn’s video, I believe he does say that the timing is dependent upon each person’s climate.


while it’s true that trees will have seasons when they look particularly good, or bad, that has no bearing on developmental or refinement technique.

Oh, there is some leeway, of course. In Japan, most of the big shows are in the winter. Shimpaku would normally be bronze colored. But they want them to be pretty for the show, so for that year, they’ll greenhouse them so the foliage will be green during the show. Other years, they’ll let them get cold and turn bronze. Stuff like that. The National Shohin show in Kannapolis is at the end of June. That’s about when I decandle my JBP. I have to decide if I want to decandle before the show, and have the tree look a bit like a plucked chicken, or show it lush with longneedles. Decisions, decisions! But, regardless, I have to decandle at some point to maintain short internodes and short needles.

And if you think my trees are styled like poodles, well, that’s a limitation of photography. I can assure you that they are not. The pads are complained of layers of foliage as I discussed in a post above. With lots of interior buds and branchlets for the future.

 

[sorce]

And if you think my trees are styled like poodles, well,

No, yours don't have that look.

I know he mentions climate and timing.
What I'm saying is it is more on depth than simply adjusting timing. To truely heed the climate difference means an entirely different schedule.

I think the South is able to eke out a bit more "health" (not growth growth is finite), so this technique can be employed.

But I also feel like you, (the South), could also best utilize that extra health, in manners different than Japanese methods.

Since, I don't believe Japan has a range so warm so long. Of course, I don't know for certain.

Exploring these important differences and truth, can find us all with healthier, more beautiful trees, IMo.

I'm not here to say I am better, or anyone's trees are not beautiful, I just know they all can go to one better level, regardless of current education.

What else....

That Style Raku Bowl was born in connection with war and changes of parties.

So on one hand, I believe it is ok we bicker our way into a better aesthetic....

But my real heart believes the Egyptian teachings, of a more feminine society, bringing a even higher degree of art, education, and advancement.

I remain in that realm, which is why I remain misunderstood, and people infer conflict, where I bear none.

Sorce

 

[bonsaichile]

Good info! Can you share the link with me please?
I did follow this technique for a year on multiple specimens, but the results are buds at the tip and the tip only. I'd like those buds to go back just a couple of centimeters, maybe 2017 or 2016 wood. And it's not working! Maybe I'm doing something wrong. A link would be appraciated so I can see if my technique is sound.

Last year I cut some needles in half and every single one of them produced a bud. This makes me wonder if I'm maybe supressing the wrong part of the tree really. I know Vance uses the bowtie technique on mugo sometimes, it might be that the two are connected. Ryan Neil keeps saying that old needles are needed for the auxin supply. So when combining those pieces, I think I might have a puzzle to solve.
Experimenting is already on its way. I selected some branches that need to be removed later anyway, to see what happens.

Something that has worked for.menia to let the candles develop freely, and 2 ot 3 weeks after the new needles hava hardened, I cut them as Bjorn did in his video. This, and lots of fertilizer all through the season and into the fall. I have gotten buds in 2 year old wood with this method, as well as at the wound, wich I reduce to 2 laterals in the fall/winter.

 

[Paul G]

These are single flush pines. They don’t get “decandled”. That’s a double flush technique.

When pines are young, and the objective is to build a trunk, you don’t pinch or decandle. During that that time of the tree’s development, the tree is allowed to grow unchecked to build wood. Let grow, and cut back. Cutting back develops taper. The tree is not “a bonsai” at this stage, it’s a “pre-bonsai”.

Once the trunk is developed, and you put it in a bonsai pot, and serious training begins, that’s when the selective pinching and pruning begins to balance strength.

Generally speaking, trunks don’t develop in a bonsai pot. Oh, I know they “do”, but the process is far slower than in the ground, or in a generous grow box. They develop bark nicely, but not so much

With younger pines that you're letting grow uninhibited, you're still pinching or pruning to no more than 2 buds, correct? If yes, do you do it before they begin to extend in the spring or in the fall when everything is energy positive?

 

[Paul G]

These are single flush pines. They don’t get “decandled”. That’s a double flush technique.

When pines are young, and the objective is to build a trunk, you don’t pinch or decandle. During that that time of the tree’s development, the tree is allowed to grow unchecked to build wood. Let grow, and cut back. Cutting back develops taper. The tree is not “a bonsai” at this stage, it’s a “pre-bonsai”.

Once the trunk is developed, and you put it in a bonsai pot, and serious training begins, that’s when the selective pinching and pruning begins to balance strength.

Generally speaking, trunks don’t develop in a bonsai pot. Oh, I know they “do”, but the process is far slower than in the ground, or in a generous grow box. They develop bark nicely, but not so much

 

[JudyB]

Because you’re suggesting that your skills and techniques are superior to those of a world-renowned, Japanese-trained, successful bonsai professional.

With nothing to evidence that assertion.

Couldn't have said it better.

It wasn't suggested.

You're right, you didn't "suggest" it you said it outright.

 

[Adair M]

With younger pines that you're letting grow uninhibited, you're still pinching or pruning to no more than 2 buds, correct? If yes, do you do it before they begin to extend in the spring or in the fall when everything is energy positive?

Like almost everything with bonsai: “it depends”. If the growth is a sacrifice branch, there’s no need to pinch or reduce to two as long as it’s not shading the keeper branches below. So, the extra branches grow and contribute to creating wood lower on the trunk.


This picture is Telperion’s patch of JBP. Those sacrifice trunks are 15 feet tall! They let the side shoots of the sacrifice grow for a while, then they prune them off, leaving only the central leader. The central leader growing tall focuses the tree’s energy up, and produces the thickest trunk in the least amount of time. Over the years, they’ll grow a series of sacrifice branches like this to build a heavy trunk with taper.

But, that’s not what Bjorn was demonstrating. He is showing refinement techniques. For trees either beginning refinement, or fully into refinement.

Sorce was saying “different techniques for different seasons of the year”. Well, not exactly. It’s different techniques for different stages of development.

 

[Lazylightningny]

I don’t shut down the discussion. I have posted lots of reply’s to people asking intelligent questions and/or asking for clarification.

on the other hand, this is how you act:

lol love me some Monty Python.

I would argue that most of us, myself included, have little experience with pines and only have trees in the development phase, in which case these candle pinching techniques are deferred until the tree becomes more refined. In my own case, take this JWP that I purchased from Home Depot 4 years ago. The graft is quite obvious, which I hope will become less conspicuous as the tree barks up. I also have a lot of sap stains on the trunk. These things bleed profusely.

What I do is fertilize heavily and let the tree grow unhindered until fall. At that time, I selectively prune branches to 2 bifurcations per terminus and select 2 lateral buds per terminus, then I wire the branches. I then leave it alone until next fall. I also saw an inch or so off the bottom of the root ball each spring. At some point, I will start bare rooting 20% of the roots to begin the process of removing soil. I have a lot of trepidation about this. Although I aggressively bare root other trees, I'm a little scared to do this to pines.

Here is a four year progression.

 

[Adair M]

lol love me some Monty Python.

I would argue that most of us, myself included, have little experience with pines and only have trees in the development phase, in which case these candle pinching techniques are deferred until the tree becomes more refined. In my own case, take this JWP that I purchased from Home Depot 4 years ago. The graft is quite obvious, which I hope will become less conspicuous as the tree barks up. I also have a lot of sap stains on the trunk. These things bleed profusely.

What I do is fertilize heavily and let the tree grow unhindered until fall. At that time, I selectively prune branches to 2 bifurcations per terminus and select 2 lateral buds per terminus, then I wire the branches. I then leave it alone until next fall. I also saw an inch or so off the bottom of the root ball each spring. At some point, I will start bare rooting 20% of the roots to begin the process of removing soil. I have a lot of trepidation about this. Although I aggressively bare root other trees, I'm a little scared to do this to pines.

Here is a four year progression.

It will take 20 to 25 years for the White Pine trunk to start to become flaky. Then it takes another decade for it to be flaky uniformly all around the trunk. Then another decade to start to develop plates on the bark.

Just setting some expectations.

 

[sorce]

You're right, you didn't "suggest" it you said it outright.

Where? This?

I get more energy and no poodling.

That's the closest thing to that I said.
And that is far from false or final.

Sorce

 

[sorce]

, I have to decandle at some point to maintain short internodes and short needles.

I think this is the false belief that stunts ..human growth on bonsai.

Without getting defensive, can you explain why, definitively, you need to do this?

And further, how at first, "we don't ever decandle these", to, "now we do"...is not confusing. It happened within this one thread.

See...we..as a group, are confused.

Sorce

 

[sorce]

Sorce was saying “different techniques for different seasons of the year”. Well, not exactly. It’s different techniques for different stages of development.

That's not what I was saying.

Sorce

 

[Adair M]

I think this is the false belief that stunts ..human growth on bonsai.

Without getting defensive, can you explain why, definitively, you need to do this?

And further, how at first, "we don't ever decandle these", to, "now we do"...is not confusing. It happened within this one thread.

See...we..as a group, are confused.

Sorce

No, the group is not confused, just you.

the “we don’t ever decandle these” is referring to the single flush pines.

my point about needing to decandle my JBP pines in the summer is about just that: Japanese BLACK pines. That came up because you went off on some irrelevant tangent about applying techniques due to seasons - about making the tree look good for a specific show or something.

 

[Maloghurst]

This approach is fine for bud formation just below the candle removed (as shown in the picture) , not near as effective for bud formation further back on the branch. In other words limited effectiveness for back budding. I would use this approach when desiring shorter internodes in the vicinity of the candles or wishing to maintain the silhouette. I am sure Peter addresses this limitation somewhere in his presentation or series of explanations.

Your right about there being more specifics in the video. He’s talking about Scots and mugo mostly. He stats that JWP are less likely to backbud. But he is certain about getting branches of Scots and mugo to backbud on the branch with this technique.

 

[Maloghurst]

Good info! Can you share the link with me please?
I did follow this technique for a year on multiple specimens, but the results are buds at the tip and the tip only. I'd like those buds to go back just a couple of centimeters, maybe 2017 or 2016 wood. And it's not working! Maybe I'm doing something wrong. A link would be appraciated so I can see if my technique is sound.

Last year I cut some needles in half and every single one of them produced a bud. This makes me wonder if I'm maybe supressing the wrong part of the tree really. I know Vance uses the bowtie technique on mugo sometimes, it might be that the two are connected. Ryan Neil keeps saying that old needles are needed for the auxin supply. So when combining those pieces, I think I might have a puzzle to solve.
Experimenting is already on its way. I selected some branches that need to be removed later anyway, to see what happens.

A member posted it on page 2 of this thread. Petter warren video.

 

[Adair M]

Where? This?


That's the closest thing to that I said.
And that is far from false or final.

Sorce

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