ihaveaspaceship
Shohin
What does the cut candle look like toward Autum? The small weak shoots that were left alone, do they continue to extend?
Bjorn’s Single Flush Pine technique explained!
- Thread starter Adair M
- Start date
These are single flush pines. They don’t get “decandled”. That’s a double flush technique.
When pines are young, and the objective is to build a trunk, you don’t pinch or decandle. During that that time of the tree’s development, the tree is allowed to grow unchecked to build wood. Let grow, and cut back. Cutting back develops taper. The tree is not “a bonsai” at this stage, it’s a “pre-bonsai”.
Once the trunk is developed, and you put it in a bonsai pot, and serious training begins, that’s when the selective pinching and pruning begins to balance strength.
Generally speaking, trunks don’t develop in a bonsai pot. Oh, I know they “do”, but the process is far slower than in the ground, or in a generous grow box. They develop bark nicely, but not so much
Colorado
Masterpiece
Because you’re suggesting that your skills and techniques are superior to those of a world-renowned, Japanese-trained, successful bonsai professional.
With nothing to evidence that assertion.
Mayank
Chumono
@Adair M thanks for posting. This is my first year (on my own) that I will have to deal with my P. Silvestris and I am going to apply his technique to my tree. Last year I didn't touch it because it almost died in my "garage wintering" debacle that I've already beaten to death in other threads. The year before that we worked on it together with the person that originally owned it and later sold it to us and my son who did most of the work (while I sipped wine and "observed") at that time does not remember any details!
Question for you @Adair M. If the tree is in a refined state already then will each years growth (even though the candle has been pinched it'll still leave a smaller reduced length bit that'll keep adding to the growth over time right? And of course the smaller weaker candles that he did not touch will also grow out right? If the tree is at the perfect stage then after say five years will it appear larger or leggier anyway (albeit slower than if you had not pinched the candle at all)? Or is this the intent and then at some point you remove longer branches to allow the shorter inner branches to fill in the same previous silhouette? Thanks in advance. Your trees look beautiful BTW. All of them but especially the one in the round bowl looking pot with the long branch in han kengai type style is spectacular.
Wires_Guy_wires
Imperial Masterpiece
Thanks Frank, I appreciate your guidance!
I'm dealing with five to eight buds on every branch for the second consecutive year, and they still will not bud on wood older than a year. My mugos do!
But my scots don't. Right now they're exploding with growth.
Cutting the shoots in summer yields a bunch of buds on the ends, sometimes a second flush, but never buds further back. This year I'm reducing those shoots in fall instead of summer. Just to see if it works.
I'm kind of breaking my head about that back budding in scots pines. It seems that everything I try does have effect, just not the effect I'm looking for.
And I'm going biochemical on a couple.. If they don't grow their own buds, I'll hormonally force them to.
Fertilize in fall. Wire the branches out so that sunlight hits the branches. Do not expect backbuds to appear anywhere other than at old nodes.
Mayank
Chumono
What do you do Vance? Is there a particular thread that you have mentioned your technique in? I searched under your name but there is a lot of threads that came up!
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
Frankly. No. Hence the need for discussion of the topic.
No because I don't like to spread misinformation, or half understandings.
Of course, I am guilty of this, in small instances, but, if one were to read my entire history, it would contain full understanding.
This phenomenon plagues forums, since no one can write all the details in every thread.
But like Walter says, the method only works en Total, you can't just do parts.
It is the people's burden to research the entire method.
That said.
My "Method", is starting at a new beginning.
Currently, we walked up to a tree, and decided it should do for us, and we proceeded.
I want us to, walk up to a tree, and realize it is already doing for us, so we must nurture it.
That prevents the need to remove energy.
I was watching a show last night about Raku Tea Bowls.
The traditional Raku Tea Bowl has managed to encorporate the beauty of both man and nature, in a way that is much more profound than bonsai. You realize this in the positive space of the Raku Tea Bowl, only deducing small facts about bonsai from the negative space.
The move from Chinese Tea Wares is more profound than the move from Chinese "Bonsai".
So do I believe the Japanese have tapped every ounce of possibility from Bonsai?
No I do not.
I know for sure, we didn't get to modern JBP growing techniques by shutting down discussion of new possibilities.
I bow to earth before anyone else, then you.
Sorce
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sorce
Nonsense Rascal
People have inferred that.
It wasn't suggested.
I know because I would have been suggesting.
Sorce
bonsaichile
Omono
Sorry, man, but bonsai is not a theoretical field like math or philosophy. It is a craft, and you can discuss all you want, but in the end what matters is what you do, not what you say. The results you get. @Adair M showed us several highly refined trees, in good clear pictures that give us the complete image he is going after. You showed us a close up of a branch. Not a full tree. And I can have a dope branch in a crappy tree. In the end, all your knowledge (some of which is at best debatable, like the moon stuff you like to push) amounts to nothing if you cannot translate that into a highly refined bonsai tree. Again, we can argue all day, but in the end, the truth is in the trees.
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
That's the problem with showing trees.
It has nothing to do with the body of the vehicle if we are discussing the engine.
You are enthused by a Lambo body with a 50cc Vespa engine.
I'm showing you a Vespa with a German Diesel.
Discuss the engine.
And don't In Infer the above is anything but am explanation of how you don't understand the discussion.
I have no need to swing anything, unlike some.
I follow this Philosophy. It's not what you have, it's what you can live without.
That's why I ain't worried about life as much as y'all are right now.
And when I oh can't get your expensive soil, and all your trees die when you can't figure out a new mix.
Poof.
Sorcetainability.
Sorce
I can be done either way. In fact, in the video Bjorn does it with both scissors and fingers.
Some candles will be more “open”, with needles spacedfarther apart than others. Those might be easier to do with fingers.
The tree Bjorn was working on looked like it had pretty strong growth, all over. The candles look strong. This can happen when it’s been well fertilized, or when it’s been recently repotted and the roots are growing fast into fresh soil, or when it finds itself in a more favorable climate! Or any combination of them! A tree that hasn’t been repotted in several years, been lightly fertilized, etc, may have candles that aren’t nearly thhs strong.
I have a JWP, well ramified, hasn’t been repotted in a couple years, that is putting out new candles, but it’s been balanced for years. And it just doesn’t need any pinching!
Here’s a picture:
And a close up of the candles:
I have not had to pinch a single candle on this tree, this year. This tree has been in refinement for decades. Every couple years, the pads need to have the wire taken off and replaced, but that’s just normal maintenance with any pine.
Maloghurst
Chumono
I was just watching the peter warren stream someone else just posted and he very clearly answered this question in his own way. I’m paraphrasing so watch it for more details. After building up a lot of energy. He says to not touch the candle in spring On branch you need to back bud. Then in July just as it starts to set buds for the following year you completely remove the candle. The energy in the branch now forms buds back down the stem. The in fall prune back to another bud. Of course months and climates are all relative.
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River's Edge
Masterpiece
Seems like a reasonable time to express a separate point of view.
Very different pictoral examples. refinement versus tree in training. One is years if not decades behind the other. So there is no reason for them to be using the same techniques as they have separate goals at this point and maybe forever depending on the owners viewpoint and endgame.
Not too mention different species with very different degree of difficulty in development and refinement.
IMHO Separate techniques used for primarily separate results!
1. Strengthen, grow out and cutback for back buds when branching reaches the proper thickness and length. This will also create smaller needles over time as the number of buds and foliage increases dividing the energy even further. Basic developmental technique. Can be clip and grow or can involve wiring for direction and movement. Depending on style and desired level of aesthetic. This primarily a developmental technique in my opinion.
2. Single flush Candle treatment and needle reduction for shorter internodes and smaller needles. Weakening the tree ( needle reduction and candle treatment) also shortens the growing season for the buds and creates shorter needles. Basic refinement technique after developmental goals have been reached. Trunk size, Primary, secondary and tertiary branching and foliage density. Depending on style ( pad development ) and or level of aesthetic. This is primarily a refinement technique in my opinion.
Both techniques work, both are intended to get the tree to respond in a different manner. Both can and should be used in Bonsai. Typically the first method is used primarily to create density of foliage in the interior and at various stages during development and to maintain the desired outline over time. The second is used to take that density to a different level of refinement. Then at a later stage the process repeats itself with the tree allowed to grow out, prior to cut back and re-styling, and eventually another level of refinement.
Each technique needs to be modified for climate, tree condition, size of the tree and the practitioners care pattern to get the best results. So there is lots of opportunity to argue about what to do and when. The right answer will vary.
3. If the artist gets the results they are after than the technique is the right one for them. Some are totally happy with the results of the first process and never attempt the second.
4. Not sure why it is necessary to fight over who is right, or best. Post your trees and let the results speak for themselves.
The cut (or broken) candle repairs itself, and produces a terminal bud just like the ones that weren’t touched. The small shoots extend a little bit more than they would have if the strong candles had not been removed. The growth that strong candle would have done gets redirected to the weaker ones.
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
I think this is where a lot of energy gets lost in people's interpretation of Vance's method.
I believe it reads, or gets interpreted as ALWAYS cut in July.
Which to me, causes too many unused buds, which is where energy gets lost, in their removal.
Sorce
Yes, no matter what we do, the branches will extend. Over time, they will simply get too long. In my experience, that’s about every 5 or 6 years. Then it’s time to do a cut back. Shorten all the primary branches, cutting back to a secondary, and maybe applying wire to redirect that into position.
That’s why it’s important to maintain the interior branches. Those are the future of the bonsai for the long term. It’s also the reason I build pads of foliage in layers. Eventually, the bottom layer grows out too long. It’s removed, and the layer that was just above becomes the primary branch (layer). And new layers, closer to the trunk, are developed so that that this process can continue indefinitely.
Maloghurst
Chumono
Your right about that. He goes on to say that in late July early August you have to remove all but 2 or three of the adventitious buds or they will not be enough strength and they will all wither away.
Mayank
Chumono
Perfect. You answered my question exactly. Thank you so much. It all makes more sense now!
River's Edge
Masterpiece
This approach is fine for bud formation just below the candle removed (as shown in the picture) , not near as effective for bud formation further back on the branch. In other words limited effectiveness for back budding. I would use this approach when desiring shorter internodes in the vicinity of the candles or wishing to maintain the silhouette. I am sure Peter addresses this limitation somewhere in his presentation or series of explanations.
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