BVF Shimpaku critique

[Bananaman]

I don't know Scott, she did not elaborate except to say that for some reason the trunk changed direction and now is growing in the opposite direction and we should respect that. I have no idea what that means. I have no idea if thats a Kathy opinion or Yaseo Mitsuya, four time Kokufu winners opinion.

 

[Bananaman]

Which way is the movement in this tree?



What if we take the same tree and extend the growth out a couple years? Would this be considered living movement? I coined this term, not Kathy but I needed a term to define what I was talking about. I like the term and will use it when I talk about trees in classes. Feel free to use it also.
So now, same tree, which way does the movement go now?

 

[Bananaman]

So without knowing for sure I think what Kathy is trying to say is that since the tree made a U turn and started growing in a different direction from where it started, and the dominate portion of the living tree is after the bend, it can be considered, moving in that direction.

The living movement

 

[Bananaman]

OH, and one more important thing she said. The apex always takes presedence in determining movement in a tree with no dominate feel. So if you have a totally balanced Moyogi and have no idea which way to point the tree in a three point display, throw some wire on the apex real quick and make a choice for the day!!!

 

[markyscott]

I don't know Scott, she did not elaborate except to say that for some reason the trunk changed direction and now is growing in the opposite direction and we should respect that. I have no idea what that means. I have no idea if thats a Kathy opinion or Yaseo Mitsuya, four time Kokufu winners opinion.

I’m sure we’re intellectually capable of having a good discussion about this and learning something without an appeal to authority.

Which way is the movement in this tree?

View attachment 204468

What if we take the same tree and extend the growth out a couple years? Would this be considered living movement? I coined this term, not Kathy but I needed a term to define what I was talking about. I like the term and will use it when I talk about trees in classes. Feel free to use it also.
So now, same tree, which way does the movement go now?

View attachment 204469

Thanks for the drawings. They’re very illustrative of the problem. In the first drawing, I see an informal upright. A vertical line intersecting the apex would fall within the basal section of trunk. It looks like it’s slightly left of center, so I’d say overall, it has a slight movement left. However, that might be overwhelmed by the strong rightward movement of trunk where it emerges from the soil. If your goal was to create a classically styled tree, I think you could really get away with placing your key branch on either side.

On the second drawing, I see a slant. The vertical line intersecting the apex would fall on the left hand side of the pot, so it’s a very strong movement left. I think that overwhelms the movement of the basal section of trunk. I think this tree would look odd with a key branch on the right. Doing so would lead my eye up and out of the composition that is so neatly framed by the boomerang-shaped trunk movement. I’d probably want to build the tree to occupy the negative space within the boomerang on the left hand side of the tree

OH, and one more important thing she said. The apex always takes presedence in determining movement in a tree with no dominate feel. So if you have a totally balanced Moyogi and have no idea which way to point the tree in a three point display, throw some wire on the apex real quick and make a choice for the day!!!

I think that’s totally consistent with my way of thinking and perhaps why I saw the movement I did in Brian’s tree.

Scott

 

[Adair M]

Al, based upon your statement that the apex determines the direction, then Brian’s tree moves to the right, because the apex is on the right side of the nebari. Because “something” caused the apex to be on the right of the nebari!

Kathy won the argument with Gremel because she was the judge that day. Doesn’t mean she was right. Just means that she was the one who got to decide, THAT DAY. Another day, another judge, who knows?

I like Kathy, but I don’t agree with everything she does. She gave a demo for the Atlanta Bonsai Society. And they gave her a rough shimpaku to work with. So, the first task was to clean out all the dead and dying and weak inner foliage. I worked on one side of the tree doing that, while she demonstrated creating Jin on the other. Later, when it came time to wire, I asked her which branches on my side did she want me to wire while she wired on her side. She pointed them out and we went to work. When I was done, she looked at my wiring and said, “Adair, you wire too tight! I wire really loose, so that the wire doesn’t actually touch. That way, I can twist it, and the wire tightens when I twist”. Well, that’s not how I’ve been taught! I generally don’t twist, I bend. And she’s right, the wire does tighten when you twist, IF you twist it the right way! TTwist the other way, the wire loosens! Which means, the direction you wire, clockwise or counter clockwise is very important if you intend on twisting the branch. Like I said, I bend, I generally don’t twist when styling. So the direction of the spiral isn’t all that important. I do try to put the wire on the outside of the curve. And, I actually try to bend the branch into the position I want AS I’m wiring. I used to put the wire on, then bend it into position. I watched Daisaku Nomoto wire a tree, and had an epiphany when I realized he was actually shaping the branches as he was wiring. After he applied the wire, he did do minor corrections, but a lot was done in the process of wiring.

Anyway, to finish the Kathy Shaner story, I told her that I didn’t think I would be able to wire the way she wanted, so I stepped away at that point, and let her do her thing. When she was done wiring and twisting, I helped her finish up by cleaning the bottoms of the pads and tidying up.

The point is even “Japanese” trained professionals can have different approaches. Is one right and the other wrong? No. They’re just different.

 

[coh]

Anyway, to finish the Kathy Shaner story, I told her that I didn’t think I would be able to wire the way she wanted, so I stepped away at that point, and let her do her thing. When she was done wiring and twisting, I helped her finish up by cleaning the bottoms of the pads and tidying up.

The point is even “Japanese” trained professionals can have different approaches. Is one right and the other wrong? No. They’re just different.

I could've sworn the first time I read that, it said "Kathy Shiner".

 

[Adair M]

I could've sworn the first time I read that, it said "Kathy Shiner".

It may have.

It’s still too early in the day!

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

I see what you’re focusing on. As a privileged observer, I saw three things that suggested rightward movement; 1) the strong movement of the basal exposed portion on the trunk to the right, 2) because a vertical line centered on the apex would intersect the soil line to the right of the trunk, and 3) because at least 2/3 of the foliage mass would be to the right of a vertical line centered on the trunk at the soil line. So despite all the twists and turns of the trunk, the apex and foliage mass are to the right of the trunk where it emerges from the soil and that suggests rightward movement to me.

There were two things that interested me in pursuing this line of discussion with you. First, it’s interesting to me that to serious hobbyists (and professionals if Al’s conjecture is right) could look at the same tree and not agree on which way it moves. Second, it’s interteresting to me that in eastern cultures, the natural inclination is to place the key branch in the direction of trunk movement while in the west it’s often the opposite.

As Adair said, I do see the live vein exiting the soil and moving left, setting the directionality to the left, which is likely the difference between my view and yours. Technically, the center of the apex is above that same spot where the live vein leaves the soil, and the foliage mass, to my eye, is evenly split between the two sides, if not heavier on the left.

Along with your western/eastern aesthetic, a buddy and I always used to talk about how people “read” trees. Western people print and read top left to bottom right, and that’s the tendency; your eye wants to start at the top left and move right and down. In Japan, they read top right to bottom left, I have no idea if that translates to making trees that more frequently move left. Talking with both Bill and Kathy, they joke that they rarely have enough trees to put on the right end of the display tables because very few of our trees in the West “read” (or move) toward the left.

However, in True Kathy fashion, last year she put this Shimpaku on the left side of the entrance table, and put the ume on the right side. It doesn’t look bad there because it’s up higher than the ume, but to me it looks like it’s trying to exit the scene stage right.

 

[Adair M]

As Adair said, I do see the live vein exiting the soil and moving left, setting the directionality to the left, which is likely the difference between my view and yours. Technically, the center of the apex is above that same spot where the live vein leaves the soil, and the foliage mass, to my eye, is evenly split between the two sides, if not heavier on the left.
View attachment 204501
Along with your western/eastern aesthetic, a buddy and I always used to talk about how people “read” trees. Western people print and read top left to bottom right, and that’s the tendency; your eye wants to start at the top left and move right and down. In Japan, they read top right to bottom left, I have no idea if that translates to making trees that more frequently move left. Talking with both Bill and Kathy, they joke that they rarely have enough trees to put on the right end of the display tables because very few of our trees in the West “read” (or move) toward the left.

However, in True Kathy fashion, last year she put this Shimpaku on the left side of the entrance table, and put the ume on the right side. It doesn’t look bad there because it’s up higher than the ume, but to me it looks like it’s trying to exit the scene stage right.
View attachment 204500

Interesting!!!

So, you put your vertical line over the center of where the live vein emerges from the soil.

I would never have seen it that way.

I would say the the whole of the base of the tree is the “nebari” whether deadwood or live vein, thus the center of mass of the nebari would be an inch or two to the left. So, I would have the centerline an inch or two over on the left.

Since we’re talking hypotheticals here, how would you see the movement if that live vein started on the left side of the trunk? And ran up the left side rather than across the front? Would that change the flow?

This bit of thought made me realize something else: usually, (or, at least oftentimes) the deadwood side is the side where the weather comes from. The live vein survives on the protected side of the trunk. And the protected side manages to retain the bulk of the foliage as it’s not trying to grow directly “into the face” of the weather.

Lol!!! Rodney Clemons likes trees with a “Conversation Branch”, because they invoked discussions exactly like we’re having here! Brian, I think you’ve surpassed Rodney with a “Conversation Tree”!

 

[Bananaman]

I’m sure we’re intellectually capable of having a good discussion about this and learning something without an appeal to authority.
Scott

I don't know, and I said so. I didnt go to Japan to study with that guy so I have no idea where Kathy got this info. Surly there has been enough throwing around of teachers names on this forum to last a life time correct? I think his credentials mean something, do they not?

 

[yenling83]

@Brian Van Fleet it's fuckin beautiful! (can I say that on here?) Nice work man!

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Interesting!!!

So, you put your vertical line over the center of where the live vein emerges from the soil.

I would never have seen it that way.

I would say the the whole of the base of the tree is the “nebari” whether deadwood or live vein, thus the center of mass of the nebari would be an inch or two to the left. So, I would have the centerline an inch or two over on the left.

Since we’re talking hypotheticals here, how would you see the movement if that live vein started on the left side of the trunk? And ran up the left side rather than across the front? Would that change the flow?

This bit of thought made me realize something else: usually, (or, at least oftentimes) the deadwood side is the side where the weather comes from. The live vein survives on the protected side of the trunk. And the protected side manages to retain the bulk of the foliage as it’s not trying to grow directly “into the face” of the weather.

Lol!!! Rodney Clemons likes trees with a “Conversation Branch”, because they invoked discussions exactly like we’re having here! Brian, I think you’ve surpassed Rodney with a “Conversation Tree”!

The vertical line was from the center of the apex down in response to Scott’s comment. I was actually surprised that it landed over the live vein, and fairly close to the center of the pot...and how hard it was to draw a line on my photo!

I really can’t say how I would see it if the live vein ran left to right at the soil level, that’s talking totally different trees now. I will say that the pine in the image Al posted here, to me, moves right, and the juniper moves left.

Also, I have often thought that our two avatar trees had similar trunk movement and proportion, where your lower trunk has a buttress on the right, it starts decidedly at the left moving right. The live vein on mine is going decidedly left. My upper trunk moves left, while yours straightens out. Interestingly, both lowest branches emerge to the left side. By the “rules” your first right branch should be lower, but I don’t think that would be an improvement.

 

[markyscott]

Anyway - I hope this hasn’t taken away anything from the beauty of the tree. This is really just an interesting side-discussion I wanted to have and it’s way down in the weeds. You’ve got an awesome tree and whether it leans to the right of the left is just noodling around the edges. It’s fantastic - thank you for sharing it. I look forward to seeing it again in the future.

S

 

[Arcto]

Just interrupting briefly to say I’m really enjoying eavesdropping on this conversation. Wonderful tree! Please carry on.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Anyway - I hope this hasn’t taken away anything from the beauty of the tree. This is really just an interesting side-discussion I wanted to have and it’s way down in the weeds. You’ve got an awesome tree and whether it leans to the right of the left is just noodling around the edges. It’s fantastic - thank you for sharing it. I look forward to seeing it again in the future.

S

Thanks, not at all; this may have been one of the better exchanges around here lately. Hope to see you in September.

 

[Djtommy]

It sure is a nice tree, as it is now, I still feel like movement to the right is stronger but, the more I look at it. It seems to be easier and better for the tree to have it flow left.
I would do this by by bringing in everything closer in towards the trunk from the right side.
A bit like this virt, now to me is has a more distinged flow to the left.

 

[Paulpash]

Thanks, not at all; this may have been one of the better exchanges around here lately. Hope to see you in September.

I agree - awesome tree and it's a testament to your dedication and perseverance. Good luck in the Nationals, mate. It'll be interesting if it's possible to compare the judge's critique to your own & others comments. Is this a possibility or is it a more closed judging process?

 

[0soyoung]

Peter Tea's tree shows a lot of the trunk up top that is moving left. There is more foliage to the left or extending left. Foliage on the right is closer to the trunk than on the left. It makes me think of trees subject to prevailing winds coming from the right --> hence the tree is going left, being pushed left. The weight of lower branches has little to do with my emotional response / snap judgement / first impression. The aesthetic 'rule' of where the lowest heavy branch should be is interesting and interests me a lot artistically - if I ever get to your level I know a subtle way to screw with your heads (that is a part of artistic expression that I muse about , now I know).

Your tree, @Brian Van Fleet, shows veins tilting to the right, IMHO, a framed negative space to the right. The apical part of the trunk is effectively hidden, I think. It is just something up top to put the canopy directly over the base of the tree. My instinct is to show the upper trunk more clearly and squeeze the foliage on the right side closer to the trunk to make it unambiguously move left, based on the comparison with Peter's tree.

Thanks for this open discussion. Thanks to @Bananaman for kicking off 'self critiques' and thanks for your commentary here. Thanks @markyscott and @Djtommy. I found your comments provocative and enlightening. Plus, I am happy that I've finally progressed enough that this level of discussion has some meaning to me!

 

[Adair M]

The vertical line was from the center of the apex down in response to Scott’s comment. I was actually surprised that it landed over the live vein, and fairly close to the center of the pot...and how hard it was to draw a line on my photo!

I really can’t say how I would see it if the live vein ran left to right at the soil level, that’s talking totally different trees now. I will say that the pine in the image Al posted here, to me, moves right, and the juniper moves left.

Also, I have often thought that our two avatar trees had similar trunk movement and proportion, where your lower trunk has a buttress on the right, it starts decidedly at the left moving right. The live vein on mine is going decidedly left. My upper trunk moves left, while yours straightens out. Interestingly, both lowest branches emerge to the left side. By the “rules” your first right branch should be lower, but I don’t think that would be an improvement.
View attachment 204508

I have always considered my tree to be a slant to the right, even though Bill Valavanis called it an “almost perfect informal upright”. I almost broke out in a laugh! Not only is it not an informal upright, it has all kinds of flaws. The lowest branch on the right is actually a back branch that’s pulled around to look like a properly placed right branch. Actually, so is the lowest left branch. When you get pads developed thick enough, you can hide all kinds of flaws! And, the trunk leans forward towards the viewer. The shadow created, even while we can still see the trunk clearly, somewhat hides the origin of the branches. There’s plenty of foliage “in the right places”, so our minds just naturally assume the branches are where they’re supposed to be, too.

That tree has taught me a great deal!

The picture you posted was taken after a fairly extensive cutback. I didn’t decandle this year, I’m letting it have a year off. Next spring it goes back into its larger training pot, and the process will start all over again!