Is bonsai art? - inspired by BVF

[Adair M]

No. We've been talking about it.
They're both down at his house still.
I need to get down there soon to get at mine.
By the way.
They are awesome!
I was going to bring mine home last fall but it wouldn't fit in the car. We couldn't take my truck because on the way down I hit a deer with it.
I think about what I want to do with it almost every day.
Thank you again so much Adair.

Smart idea. That way if it froze to death over the winter, it's Vance's fault not yours!

 

[Vance Wood]

Neither tree froze to death both are doing fine.

 

[M. Frary]

Smart idea. That way if it froze to death over the winter, it's Vance's fault not yours!

I did'nt think of that.
But no really I would trust Vance with anything I own.

 

[A Random User]

Hey Stacy!
This isn't the answer to this guy.
It will just make him feel just that much better.
Personally I think you are a true artist.
He obviously wouldn't know art if I whacked him over the head with a Remington bronze.

Thanks for the reply!

Just stopped by to pick up some of my personal belongings...

I appreciate the compliment!
And I appreciate your concerns!

However, I wanted to say that I an not actually leaving because any of this... quite the contrary!

What I do and what I create, as well as who I am... Speaks for itself.

I am very happy about who it is, I am... and what it is I do...

I have worked really hard to accomplish what I have done, and will always continue to do so.

I have a ton of new projects I am working on... I have a Tree that got accepted for the ABS /BSF Convention at the end of the Month, which I am excited about! In fact the tree I will be showing is the one I posted up here... at this thread! How's that for coincidence?



I made the pot for it... but I still need to make a Stand, and a Scroll for it! And I don't have much time... the show is in 3 weeks! And I have not even started!

I also have to remove all the old wire, apply new... and clean up all the foliage, the padding, and moss the pot! And on top of this... i am really considering either doing a longer lenth video, or multiple videos regarding the whole procees of both the creation of the stand and scroll and the clean up work for the tree! I think it could be very informative to perhaps some of the newer folks doing Bonsai, and wanting to show a tree.

The Scroll... I am considering doing a little bit like my one that I showed with my tree last year at The US National Bonsai Exhibition... So, it should be pretty Cool! And turn out pretty amazing! I am actually considering incorporating a bit of a "Supernatural " aspect within the Scrolls Concept of the painting... A sort of "Lost Souls" stuck between this and the next world. So, it should be interesting to say the least! I also have always loved the concept of trying to almost put my tree within the world I have created with the painting of the Scroll.

I have always felt it really helps to not only portray a particular type feeling... which in this particular case, will be quite melancholy. .. But, it also helps to really give a sense of what it is, that I as an Artist really want my Viewer to see, within my work. Which over the years I have really come to learn, needs to be quite focused... and not just left up to the viewer to "Immagine".

I love toying with the whole concept of a Bonsai Tree not just being all about the "Trees"... when we display them... cause it's not really. We place our trees on a stand, in a pot, use an accent piece, perhaps a Scroll... etc. With the sole porposes of actually trying to tell a story. If it was all about the tree... then we could just plop it in a plastic nursery pot and just set it on the table, and say... go ahead judge it!

So, I am swamped with this... As well did I mention I will be vending too? So, I have to get all of this Art I will be selling ready as well... and still have a ton to do here. I will be selling my Scrolls that I paint and make, Brush Paintings of the Bonsai Trees that I do, Stands that I have made, pots that I have made and hand painted... I might end up bringing some trees I have styled and putting them up for sale... they usually do really well... and allow me to buy more to work on, then see about selling.

And if this is not enough... Lol! I have about 9 Scrolls I still have to paint and make for other people, for their trees that are in the Show as well!

The awesome thing though, is that I have always worked really well under pressure! And for some reason always seem to pull the impossible out of my Ass!

But, wait... there's more!!!

3 Weeks after this event... I have a Tree that got accepted to the US National Shohin Bonsai Exhibition. .. My Premna... which I don't have a recent pic of... this one is from a year ago...



That needs the same shit done to it! And I think I don't want to use this pot. So, pot.. stand... accent plant perhaps... and scroll perhaps... which I don't have any of......

Oh... yeah....

I am also vending as well and hopefully will have to create all new products to sell!
And I am considering documenting this whole process as well with Video!

I won't be posting anymore links to my videos here... Sorry! But hopefully folks will come by an check them out at YouTube. They are under my Name... Stacy Allen Muse
And you can always subscribe to my Channel! Always posting really Cool stuff! And Always demonstrating how to ' s regarding doing Bonsai!

Keep your vibe possitive!
One thing that always works is not letting a Fool tell "Your Story".
Be proud of who you Are and what you do!
Your accomplishments will always out weigh someone else's nonsense and rhetoric...
Pyramids Full of Grain... My Friend!
Thanks!

 

[M. Frary]

Good luck.
And best wishes in everything you do.

Just stopped by to pick up some of my personal belongings

 

[A Random User]

Good luck.
And best wishes in everything you do.

You as well!

 

[Bolero]

From Frary...
Or if you're referring to me don't forget to toss in mean and enjoys being a dick to idiots.
I embrace my God given talents.

I ask: What are they...???

 

[M. Frary]

From Frary...
Or if you're referring to me don't forget to toss in mean and enjoys being a dick to idiots.
I embrace my God given talents.

I ask: What are they...???

You quoted them.

 

[my nellie]

Just stopped by to pick up some of my personal belongings...
I am very happy about who it is, I am... and what it is I do... ...I have worked really hard to accomplish what I have done, and will always continue to do so.
I have that feeling of melancholy which you referred to below...
I wish you success to all your various projects! Self knowledge and self respect are indispensable for any of us humans.
And on top of this... i am really considering either doing a longer lenth video, or multiple videos ... ...I think it could be very informative to perhaps some of the newer folks doing Bonsai, and wanting to show a tree.
Yes, it would be informative and helpful like the other videos of yours.
I have always felt it really helps to not only portray a particular type feeling... which in this particular case, will be quite melancholy. .. But, it also helps to really give a sense of what it is, that I as an Artist really want my Viewer to see, within my work.
This two-way influence, the bi-directional emotional dialectics between the creator and the viewer, creates a type of a bond...

 

[coh]

...
Keep the bunny pot to yourself.
All I ever wanted to do was smash it.

And here I thought I was the only one who felt that way!

 

[63pmp]

I haven't read all the posts on this thread, so I apologise now if I am repeating someone elses comment. My understanding is that it is all art. Anything created by humans, is art. The question is; is it good art? Craft is the medium you choose to make that art.
So any tree in a pot called bonsai is art, but is it any good?
How you decide what is good is the problem.

 

[MichaelS]

And yet, out of the other side of your mouth you say that


So which is it Michael? Is something art because the creator says it is? like you said or is something art because the creator falls into your rather narrow archetype of what an artist should look like? Like you said? You can't have it both ways. If you don't see them slaving away is it art? Or do you just assume that if YOU haven't seen something before it must be original? or are they just faking it? If they are compelled to produce, but also to make a statement and in order to make that statement they pay attention to how their audience responds and adjust the delivery of their message to maximize its impact, is that art? You don't seem able to grasp the essential contradiction in what your are saying when you say that and also say some media are precluded from being art because, -reasons-.

Now you may be able to reconcile your essential incoherence by retreating into tautology, say by saying Art is what artists produce, then defining artist as someone who produces art but then you wouldn't be able to exclude anything from the category of art, which seems very important to you for some reason.

By the way you told me to look for the truth, its out there. Here's a secret. There is no truth when it comes to art. There is no thing that is art that we could apply a truth to. There are 7+ billion definitions of art out there. One for every man, woman and child on the planet. That is because "art" is a label individuals and groups apply to something as they see fit, not the thing they are labeling. Like "large" or "heavy". Different people and different groups have different criteria by which they apply that label. The label "art" says more about the people applying the label than it does about the work the label is applied to. This is why I can't seem to let this conversation slide. For some reason your insistence that entire categorys of works CANNOT be art strikes me as fundamentally irrational. I don't understand it and the more you try to rationalize it the less it makes sense.

After your latest ''Out of the Blue'' and un-called for attack on the other thread, you have inspired me to reply to this rather incomrehensible post.

You say.....

Is something art because the creator says it is? like you said or is something art because the creator falls into your rather narrow archetype of what an artist should look like? Like you said? You can't have it both ways.

Why can't you have it both ways? They often go together anyway. However, just because someone says they are doing art does not make it so. For example, if someone comes out of a workshop where they have been given instructions about what to do every step of the way and proclaim ''look at my art'' (which by the way happens all the time) It does not follow that they are artists does it? Someone who sits at home and learns the techniques out of a book and eventually ends up with a similar image to that in the book, I put in the same category. For the most part, I include myself and 99% of others in that category.

You say....

Or do you just assume that if YOU haven't seen something before it must be original?

A stupid question. How could anyone assume that?

You say....

If they are compelled to produce, but also to make a statement and in order to make that statement they pay attention to how their audience responds and adjust the delivery of their message to maximize its impact, is that art?

Well most people would say yes. I would say it no longer is true art because the creator has now used the minds of others to enhance his work. Obviously there will be grey areas here as part of the art may be original and part will not be. I consider the art to be the product of the original thought from the individual. No ''mass'' art. But more than that, I don't consider the ''need to make a statement'' as part of the art. The art is the result of the need to produce. Why should it matter if it is seen by others or not? If someone writes a novel, it's already art before anyone reads it. When someone else reads it, it's art to them

You say....

There are 7+ billion definitions of art out there. One for every man, woman and child on the planet. That is because "art" is a label individuals and groups apply to something as they see fit, not the thing they are labeling.

That would mean that anything anyone does could be called (not seen as) art. So how can art have any kind of meaning after that? If I polish the chrome on my motorbike, and call it art, would YOU say it is now art or only art in MY mind? If you say the former, then everything has the potential to be art - everything! Think about that. Washing the floor, going to the toilet, running in a race, you name it. Remember what you said.... "art is a label individuals and groups apply to something as they see fit''.
If you say the latter, you are still saying that everything has the potential for being art but it is now confined to the mind of the creator. Now there is disagreement between the creator and the observer.
I can already here you say - there will always be disagreement and that's why we need to allow the individual to determine what art is for himself. But the truth is that polishing the chrome on a bike is not art because it is an external, pre-determined action, just like eating or breathing, not an original thought. Regardless that someone might say the opposite. Surely you must recognize that? RIGHT????

You say...

The label "art" says more about the people applying the label than it does about the work the label is applied to.

Sure. I would agree with that in most cases.

The point is that if you have no way of telling me what is not art, you have no way of telling me what is. I don't assume to have all the answers like you seem to think, far from it, but I do know that for ''art'' to have some kind of meaning, having some kind of concept about what is not art is an essential starting point. Without that you have no ground under you. I've already said that I believe art is the product of the original thought of the creator. I acknowledge that no one is an island and without interaction you cannot have thought. I also acknowledge that determining original thought is almost impossible and there probably is no completely original thought but for practical purposes in must exist. (FOR PRACTICAL PURPOSES) Right? However it is quite simple to recognize blatant plagiarism which most bonsai is. That part is extremely easy to prove and that's why I consider it a craft, like basket weaving or building most of the time.
In the end, it's probably easiest to look at art this way:
Degrees of art from zero to full and back to zero. Or low to high as others might say. All I'm saying is that zero and full is recognizable and the rest can be obscure.

Does THAT answer your questions?
Does THAT get through to the density?

 

[63pmp]

When they started signing toilets and bicycles everything became art and everyone became an artist. The definition that drawing and painting were the only arts died many years ago. The act of creation is art. You make something; its art. Simple as that. What you are arguing is whether it's good art or not.

 

[chicago1980]

Bolero,

lots of I , in there.
And that is the problem, too many personal opinions.

This is why for something to be Art it has to stand the test of time ----------- centuries.

I prefer to say, I can appreciate this, it makes me -think - feel - and be alive.
I respond.
I have no problems with. it is just a simple man saying, I appreciate something and the world
does not stop rotating.

Fine Artists also speak of -------- HIGH ART and just art.
Good Day
Humbly
Anthony

I find your concept of permanence & death in art interesting.

 

[Anthony]

@chicago1980

I am just repeating what I have heard at Art Appreciation Classes and when K's friends from the various Ives Gammell Ateliers,
got together to talk.
It seemed to be logical.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[MichaelS]

When they started signing toilets and bicycles everything became art and everyone became an artist. The definition that drawing and painting were the only arts died many years ago. The act of creation is art. You make something; its art. Simple as that. What you are arguing is whether it's good art or not.

Ok, so that means if I'm starving in the bush and have to sharpen a stick to kill a rabbit, I'm an artist. That would also mean that a chimp using a bit of grass to put down a termite hole is also an artist. A crow using bread crumbs to entice fish to the surface is one too. So if I accept that (and I do kind of see some logic in it) there's no need to call anyone an artist any more because everyone is.

 

[63pmp]

Mostly right, not sure about the crow though. Question: does your sharpened stick look as good as some of the ones done by so called primative people? You are all artists, some are just better at it then others.

 

[MichaelS]

 

[sorce]

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahah@aaaaa!

There. You go!

University Studies mean Nothing!

But if it's on YouTube!

Lolololololololol!

MichaelS...

How dare you only speak of what you know.

Are you unaware. That. This .is the internet....and 90% must be Bullshit!

Does it count if 90% of the people think it's BS!?

You photoshopped that crow.

For the record...

I think Bonsai at some levels is Art.

Basically I disagree with you...
But I find your outlook on it very true...
And interesting.

Natural. Yet unreal.

I Think I'm gonna start a Thread about how cool you are!

But seriously!

Sorce