Would you let someone style your tree for you?

[ShadyStump]

some professionals make a living off styling and caring for other peoples trees which they then enter in shows and I don’t consider that right

This I agree with you on. The same standards are held in car shows: if you didn't build/mod/restore it yourself it's bad form not to give credit to the one who did. Certain things like having the upholstery done by a professional is one thing, but buying a finished car then entering it to win a prize without saying you actually did nothing is paramount to a full lie.

Otherwise, I'm with this guy...

Hmm…. There are all kinds of bonsai hobbyists out there.

….IMHO all are welcome to the party.

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[Bonsai Nut]

If you go to a BYOT workshop where a professional gives you guidance that’s fine but to have one style your tree and call it yours is aboout as right as having an artist paint a picture for you and call it your own. I know some professionals make a living off styling and caring for other peoples trees which they then enter in shows and I don’t consider that right either unless it is acknowledged with a “styled and grown by“ placard.

I have mixed emotions about this. At some level I appreciate people showing trees in judged contests as "this is my own work and no one else has ever touched it". However there are tons of trees (and many of the best) that have belonged to more than one owner and been worked on by many people. Maintaining a show quality tree requires a high level of skill - even if you are simply maintaining the design established by someone else.

That is why I think some of the best shows have categories for "beginner, intermediate, advanced" with different rules. And at some shows people will indicate if the tree has a special history - or if it has been styled by someone else. But let's be honest - trees are constantly changing, even if you are working off someone else's blueprint. In the case above where @Adair is talking about Tyler winning an award after styling a tree belonging to one of Mr. Suzuki's customers... who wins the award? Don't they all share in the honor?

 

[ShadyStump]

And yet "having an artist paint a picture for you and call it your own" is exactly what many of the old masters routinely did. It's still a common practice for the big names in the art world to essentially have an atelier model where they come up with the overall composition and carefully supervise the work but have many apprentices doing a significant portion of the actual painting. The painting may be signed by da Vinci, but that doesn't mean that every brushstroke on it was his.

Your statement is also very much counter to how bonsai is practiced in Japan. Trees typically pass through a lot of hands before they end up at Kokufu or other top tier shows. There's quite a lot of specialization in the bonsai industry. One guy has fields and fields of trees being grown in the ground to develop trunks and exposed roots. Another guy is great at setting up the basic branch structure on trees. Some other guy is the guru of deadwood. There are also some folks who do pretty much exclusively do satsuki or do pines or whatever.

I don't think anyone is arguing that collaboration and teamwork don't count, or that leading and directing the effort means you did nothing. These practices are central to bonsai culture.

Again, I think the conversation is more along the lines of one's personal preference. It was mentioned before the difference between a collector and a practitioner. Back to the car show example, if a businessman sponsors the build, he expects his name to be on there, and if a team does the work, they also expect their name to be on there. If someone buys the car afterward for their personal collection and displays or drives it in future shows, it's expected that he gives credit to that team and their sponsor, though the new owner would be entering the car under their own name.
Often someone will start the project in their own garage at home, then sell is to someone who continues working on it, then rinse and repeat a few times. Credit goes to the person who finished it. Most shows have categories specifically for collectors vs the people who actually do it themselves.

I say trees should be treated the same. Placards have the basic info: owner, age, years in training. Just add a line for the previous owner, or where it was purchased from, or just a line saying "from the private collection off..." to differentiate between bonsai collectors and bonsai practitioners for the sake of the audience.

 

[Paradox]

When I was new I would have, but now I tend to cringe every time someone touches my tree with bonsai tools

 

[penumbra]

This has been a greatly interesting thread.
Thank you Fidur

 

[Dav4]

In the 25 years I've been doing this, I've been to scores of half and full day workshops with pros, including Bjorn, Walter P., Suthin, Kathy S, the Italian guy with the funky multi-tool sheers thingy (Marco I. ) , Ryan N., etc., etc.. Lots of one on one but I did 90%+ of the work there... and 100% of the work before and after the workshop. Then, I started stydying with Tyler Sherrod in 2019. Despite the pandemic, Tyler has managed to spend probably 10 + days at my house/in my yard working on my trees with me. By the time I pulled the trigger on a full time teacher, I had collected a rather large collection of pretty good trees and had done a good job moving them forward... slowly but surely. In the less than 3 years I've worked with him- shoulder to shoulder on the same tree or turntable to turntable on separate trees with him directing me, my trees have improved dramatically and consistently. Generally, we're building on the design I've set previously, but I have unleashed him on several unstyled/raw collected trees with loads of potential but complicated to say the least. Why... because he's an exceptionally gifted/skilled bonsai guy... way way way better than me... and he's setting these trees up for future greatness. I understand the reluctance by most here to the concept of paying someone to style one of your trees because I once thought the same way! However, at this point in my journey, I don't have a problem with it as I want these trees to really shine and Tyler is just flat out better at it than me and that will never change. Another plus is that, when Tyler's work in my yard is done and he moves on to his next stop, the trees stay with me and I can study everything he did... pruning/wiring/styling/etc... for months and months before he comes back. Have you ever really really studied- the wiring applied to a refined pine or spruce by a top knotch pro? If you haven't, you're missing out.

 

[vp999]

I always tell people I grew all my Bonsai from seed ... JK .I always tell people I bought them like that already lol. I am one are those person that thinks other people's work are always better than mine anyway...unless its really ....really bad..and I am ok with it.

 

[ZombieNick]

95% of my trees are styled by some one else, mainly because I pretty much buy my trees at a more advance stage. I like to have nice looking trees on my benches and not just "stick in the pot" it keeps me more engaged in the hobby. Im only been in the hobby for 4 years and although I do try to style some of my trees, they dont look as good lol. So.....my main task is keeping the trees alive and well, I guess "collector" is a more fitting description of me.

I think this is awesome and I wish there was more of this here in the US. Going to go a little off topic, but If I buy a painting and hang it on my wall, a guest might say "I love your painting!". They may ask who the artist is, where I got it, etc. But I don't think anyone would say "Nice painting you fraud you didn't paint that!". Yet, I see this exact sentiment for bonsai, especially online. Now I wouldn't take that painting and enter it into a contest as my own, just like I wouldn't take a tree I didn't work on and enter it in a show. But it is a little sad to think that people might be discouraged from ever owning a bonsai because they don't want to make the commitment of learning the hobby and creating it themselves.

Back on topic, I don't see anything wrong with letting someone else style your trees completely, although I have never done it myself. I am still new, so I prefer hands on workshops where I can do the work myself under the instruction of someone more experienced. Things like big bends, or work that I am not comfortable doing yet myself, I will happily let my instructor take the reigns. I wouldn't be opposed to owning a tree that I just took in for regular stylings, especially if it was a tree that was of such a high caliber that I felt in over my head on.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

I have had pros work on my trees multiple times over the years, and some have done bad work, others have done masterful work. I am more discriminating now, but would not hesitate to let my teacher make decisions on anything I have, so long as a I wasn’t envisioning something totally different (for better or worse). During Covid, I sent trees to Bjorn to work on when not much else was happening. He had time, I didn’t.

I have a hard time imagining someone with passion for the art not wanting a tree on their bench styled by their favorite pro.

 

[ShadyStump]

I think for some people having someone else style their tree is akin to having someone else plant their vegetable garden.
Why have someone else do the fun part and leave myself just the chore of weeding?

Personally, I'm in that camp, but it doesn't stop me from going to the grocery store.
I'd like to be able to find a tree that already has a decent start and some real style to it already so that I can have something to work with that I don't second guess as much as my own halfwit attempts at initial styling. Or if nothing else something nice so I can compare my skills to someone more expert.

Unfortunately I'm not in such a position right now, so I'll have to settle for Walter Pall's threads, and reading through the progression threads.

 

[Lorax7]

I don't think anyone is arguing that collaboration and teamwork don't count, or that leading and directing the effort means you did nothing. These practices are central to bonsai culture.

That wasn't really my point.

I was pointing out that this purist ideal in which bonsai that are solely the product of one mind and one set of hands are kind of put up on a pedestal is very much a uniquely Western contemporary phenomenon lacking any basis in Japanese bonsai praxis or really even all that much of a connection to other Western arts (especially after Duchamp's "readymades").

 

[ShadyStump]

That wasn't really my point.

I was pointing out that this purist ideal in which bonsai that are solely the product of one mind and one set of hands are kind of put up on a pedestal is very much a uniquely Western contemporary phenomenon lacking any basis in Japanese bonsai praxis or really even all that much of a connection to other Western arts (especially after Duchamp's "readymades").

I don't think it's necessarily that it's put on pedestal, at least not as cultural phenomenon. I think it's that interest in bonsai is exploding in the west (relatively speaking) faster than the preexisting market can handle. This leaves many of us with the mindset that we're on our own, there's no choice but to go from 0 to 100 by our own two hands.
That, unfortunately, can lead to a sort of "us vs them" thought process when considering those fortunate enough to not have had to do it that way.
There's the American cultural sense of "rugged individualism" that may play into it as well, and maybe that's why some people seem to get defensive about it.

 

[LAS]

Nope......any more than I'd let someone paint a picture for me if I was an artist. Now, if I were just into bonsai trees for their beauty and not into styling them, then yes, I would let an expert style a tree for me.

Best answer for me

 

[Shogun610]

I like this thread .. much to ponder … like I posted earlier I get to be around it a lot and having OG’s like Chase pop in and meeting Sergio , Todd , Suthin or Mauro to pick their brains and have guidance is my bread and butter in workshops. Future workshops and visiting artists on the horizon for this year and next are gonna be cool. So I’m just like a sponge right now taking it all in and applying it on my own.. I’d like to be someone that styles trees for someone some day and also collaborate and be apart of a trees lineage of caretakers sounds awesome too. Not only styling but collecting is a big focus too.. I’ll be collecting in Colorado in November with some people at the top of their game all I need to do is get the plane ticket.

 

[nuttiest]

I think for some people having someone else style their tree is akin to having someone else plant their vegetable garden.

I do this for people who have lawn service but need things the lawn service does not do, like replanting flowers every season, trimming shrubs, remove and replace, or new makeover. They just don't care to do themselves or feel confident making a garden plan.
one has a bonsai now, a procumbens juniper that gets enough water from the sprinkler system, and some have had me do tomato gardens,

 

[ShadyStump]

I do this for people who have lawn service but need things the lawn service does not do, like replanting flowers every season, trimming shrubs, remove and replace, or new makeover. They just don't care to do themselves or feel confident making a garden plan.
one has a bonsai now, a procumbens juniper that gets enough water from the sprinkler system, and some have had me do tomato gardens,

And to them I say, hey, whatever floats your boat.
It'll just be harder for them to keep my interest in a conversation on the topic.

 

[nuttiest]

Oh, some are more versed in plants than me, because they came from up north and know those varieties. They still want to garden but can't bend down Shady.
Will be my thing one day, telling someone to pick me up $100 in new annuals for the front and plant them. and I will want another juniper set on my little table so I can prune it.

 

[Adair M]

I have mixed emotions about this. At some level I appreciate people showing trees in judged contests as "this is my own work and no one else has ever touched it". However there are tons of trees (and many of the best) that have belonged to more than one owner and been worked on by many people. Maintaining a show quality tree requires a high level of skill - even if you are simply maintaining the design established by someone else.

That is why I think some of the best shows have categories for "beginner, intermediate, advanced" with different rules. And at some shows people will indicate if the tree has a special history - or if it has been styled by someone else. But let's be honest - trees are constantly changing, even if you are working off someone else's blueprint. In the case above where @Adair is talking about Tyler winning an award after styling a tree belonging to one of Mr. Suzuki's customers... who wins the award? Don't they all share in the honor?

In this case, the owner of the tree gets the award. Everyone knows that Shinji Suzuki was the artist behind the tree. No one gives the apprentice (who did the actual work) any credit! LOL!!! Tyler’s reward for Mr. Suzuki’s client winning the award was he got to sleep in the next day!

It’s kinda like the owner of the winning horse at the Kentucky Derby. Sure, the owner gets to stand up on the podium with the ribbon, the jockey gets recognized, but it was the trainers and breeze riders and the stableboys who did all the work. And get little, if any, recognition.

 

[Fidur]

Let me clarify why did I open this thread.
You all know I'm an absolute beginner. So when I bought a shrub in the nursery a year and a half ago, I somehow knew there was a beautiful tree in it. I had no "bonsai friend" to give me guidance, no clubs where I live, .... so my only chance to get a tree out of that shrub was to learn how to and educate myself. That made me struggle, and as I said in that tree thread it took me about 9 months of continiuos work to find out how to style it and in wich direction I wanted to go. In the meantime I asked for advice in different internet forums. The so called "experts" had a different vision than mine. Most of them adviced me to cut leaders, trunks, and strictly stick to one of the stablished japanese styles....
But as I was the one that could look that schrub everyday, and the one that was going to assume any outcome, I just sticked to my own decisions (wich were not shared by other more seasoned practicioners).
In that loooong process of styling I think I developed my own sense of what I wanted (and not what other people envisioned for that tree). Now, maybe this is not the best tree I could have got, but , I've gained a lot of confidence in my own decisions and developed certain skills set, so I feel very proud of my work.

So when I thought what would happend should any other person styled that tree for me, I also thought I would not be the same bonsaier (good or bad) I am now

 

[Adair M]

I say trees should be treated the same. Placards have the basic info: owner, age, years in training. Just add a line for the previous owner, or where it was purchased from, or just a line saying "from the private collection off..." to differentiate between bonsai collectors and bonsai practitioners for the sake of the audience.

I took my Zelkova to several shows. The tree is 100 years old. It was in Kokofu the year I was born, 68 years ago. I in no way take credit for “it’s creation”. It’s been on the cover of several magazines, and featured in several books. I tried to highlight it’s history by displaying the magazines and books alongside the tree:



Dozens of people have worked on this tree over it’s lifetime. It’s simply not humanly possible to have a tree that’s been in training for 100 years to be worked on by only one person.

Over on the right, you can see some of the magazines the tree has been in. I think it’s fun to see how it has progressed under it’s many owners over the years.