berzerkules
Shohin
If I keep up the pace at which I'm acquiring and propagating trees I'm going to need someone to help.
Would you let someone style your tree for you?
- Thread starter Fidur
- Start date
How many of you folks have actually done a workshop before? I gotta tell ya, it's not so much a situation where a bonsai artist is styling your tree for you. It's more like you work on your tree and the bonsai artist shows you a few things and provides some guidance about directions where you could take the tree in the future. They have to divide their time amongst all the people attending the workshop.
A demo, on the other hand, where the bonsai artist is working on only one tree for the full duration of the session and perhaps that tree belongs to an individual who offered up their tree to be styled... that's a totally different situation.
A demo, on the other hand, where the bonsai artist is working on only one tree for the full duration of the session and perhaps that tree belongs to an individual who offered up their tree to be styled... that's a totally different situation.
Michigan Tree Murderer
Masterpiece
I bought a tree at a bonsai nursery, and the person helping me sat down and started to point out what he'd do to the tree. Grabbed the scissors and clipped a couple of branches, I said "slow down, isn't that what I'm supposed to be doing." After I said that he kept on like it was his tree and went for an even bigger branch. Mind you I haven't purchased it yet, and was now having doubts. My wife noticed my dismay and picked the pot up and "said we are running late and thanks for the advice. I still bought it, but that's never happening to me again. Pretty sure it was because I said I was "new" & he thought he was helping, but I picked it because of the way it looked and he changed that. Come on Man! 
ShadyStump
Imperial Masterpiece
I think we're doomed to philosophy if we try to actually answer this.
Define ownership at all, of anything?
By your statement, can we say we own anything that might out last us, and if not are theft or arson then not immoral?
If the nature of ownership is as transient as lifespan, and we cannot own it if we cannot take it with us when we die, then do we even own our own bodies?
If the tree is not a possession, then are we not just leasing it from nature? At what price? When does nature reserve the right to revoke our lease, and what does that look like?
See, doomed to philosophy.
This is one of those things where, dude, however you want to feel about it. You do you.
I would absolutely let @MACH5 do his magic on any of my trees! His trees and garden are beautiful and I would be honored to be in the presence of his skill and artistic vision.
Firstflush
Chumono
Maybe if it was one of those several hundred year old pines that survived the bombs in Japan with all the providence attached. Never be able to afford one of those even it were up for sale
ShadyStump
Imperial Masterpiece
He already does that. From what I've seen, he's just the guy on most of the videos, but staff and students do most of the actual day to day stuff, including styling.
So cool. He could go out to fields of mature stock, get something that moves him, get it put on tractor by intern, bring to workshop, do what parts he wants, and have others do the rest. He has so many different roles, but the ability to delegate is there when he wants it.
ShadyStump
Imperial Masterpiece
Exactly. If you go through all his videos, they routinely feature other people working on trees, a few every year. One posted last week he's teaching a woman from Florida.
Peter Chan gets a bit of a bad rap sometimes, but people forget that he's running a retail shop. It's not all going to be world class trees via 100% best practices.
I wonder what some of us would do in that position. Would we continue to bonsai, or work at building the brand?
I would mark major branches I wanted cut with pink chalk. Then it would be off, and they would have to fetch me the dremel. Sorry, this is the wrong bit, you should know which one we use for the concave by now.
I would mark major branches I wanted cut with pink chalk. Then it would be off, and they would have to fetch me the dremel. Sorry, this is the wrong bit, you should know which one we use for the concave by now.
And now students, I want to build a large landscape pot with hypertufa, whoever comes up with the best model gets an extra moon pie tonight. I need the best design built by Monday. Disappears into secret closet of fairy garden supplies...
I do not currently own a tree that would be something a master/artist would even want to work on but if I did, I think I would be good with that depending. Like @penumbra said, yes, no, maybe. On the flipside of that, I’ve had someone( not an artist) work on one of my trees and I was very disappointed. I actually did not give them permission and was not even by my tree when they started to work on it. I wasn’t asked what I envisioned or what I would like. By the time I got back to my tree it had already been chopped up pretty severely. The apex that I was trying to grow so that I could thicken the trunk was gone, as were many other branches. I’m sure they thought they were helping out a newbie but it’s not want I wanted and the tree is currently struggling and may not make it.
Kadebe
Chumono
I prefer the workshops I now attend with a master. You purchase a prebonsai or yamadori. He discusses the different options you have for the styling of the tree. For beginners like me, he first shows you how to do it, e.g. wire the main branch and 1 secondary branch. The styling you have to do yourself. Afterwards he make adjustments so that it is aesthetically correct. At home you maintain the tree according to the instructions and techniques you have learned. When the time is ripe for the next step, the tree is checked during a workshop, and if necessary, adjusted, and the right techniques are taught to further develop the tree, so that in the shortest possible time you have the most efficiency to get a tree to its first maturation stage.
As a beginner, I prefer to learn it this way, and no, even it is possible that I can let the master style the tree, I'll always will style the tree by myself....but with the support of a master. The trees I didn't purchase on a workshop, I style completely myself, using the techniques I learned and without support of anybody.
I am also a subscriber to Mirai Live, where I have already learned a lot, but most of my knowledge and skills I learn from the workshops.
As a beginner, I prefer to learn it this way, and no, even it is possible that I can let the master style the tree, I'll always will style the tree by myself....but with the support of a master. The trees I didn't purchase on a workshop, I style completely myself, using the techniques I learned and without support of anybody.
I am also a subscriber to Mirai Live, where I have already learned a lot, but most of my knowledge and skills I learn from the workshops.
ShadyStump
Imperial Masterpiece
And this is where we talk about boundaries.
Doesn't matter what YOU think you're doing, if it's not your tree you don't touch it without permission.
A couple others have mentioned similar things in this thread, and I just don't understand where some people get the idea that they can just jump in like that. It's unacceptable in every other situation, and it's still unacceptable in bonsai.
Potawatomi13
Imperial Masterpiece
NO
! No more than I'd let someone have at my wife
.
! No more than I'd let someone have at my wife.
leatherback
The Treedeemer
This is the way things go at the place I frequent. Except for the adjustments. You get asked whether you want him to do this. He is a big believer in doing it yourself, and learn.
As you progress through the classes you do not need to bring your own trees, but you also work on the nursery/museum trees, same routine. Discuss, show if needed, then do the work. First time I worked on a 7K hornbeam without prior advice "Just bring back into shape, and repot. Get it ready for sales" was a little nerve-wrecking.
As I am now every once in a while asked to help others with their trees, I feel it a little odd to ask others to work on my trees. I will however go for advice & ideas every time. Deadwood I might get an artist in as this is a very unique skill where mine is still lacking.
Kadebe
Chumono
Well, I'm in my first year of really learning to develop bonsai. So yes, we first discuss, then he starts the adjustments to show how it's done and why and I finish it.
I'm not at that stage... I don't follow an apprenticeship... 30 years earlier, I would do this
Cajunrider
Imperial Masterpiece
Standard answer is "It depends". In general, I prefer to work on my own tree under the tutelage of a master or some one I trust.
For tree that I value but don't treasure and am stumped as to what to do to improve it. Yes. I will present the tree to a master and am content to sit back and watch.
For tree that I treasure, I will work on it myself under watch of a master.
For tree that I value but don't treasure and am stumped as to what to do to improve it. Yes. I will present the tree to a master and am content to sit back and watch.
For tree that I treasure, I will work on it myself under watch of a master.
Ha ha.
yes.
but the beauty of philosophy is that you put limits on your question first before answering.
But your points hit the nail on the head I think. They all crossed my mind when I put my original post up, even though I was just thinking of the simple case of transferring your trees to someone else when you are done with them.
Thinking about your points and the comment of leasing from nature, it isn’t just them outlasting us, but how we also acquired them.
Take yamadori.
Whose tree did you just dig up?
I have seen people say the age of the their Bonsai is 400 years, but styled in 2015 (say). It took me awhile to work out they dug the plant up. ie so called wild yamadori found on some cliff edge or similar.
A 400 year old plant turned into someones Bonsai, I would you are definitely now a custodian of that plant, whether you owned the land and therefore the plant or not before it was dug up.
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