Sure, you have to learn how trees respond to the technique you apply to the tree. As a beginner, maybe you don’t know that you can do a hard cut back, and the tree will respond by setting buds and growing new branches. Or, maybe that species does NOT back bud when pruned…. The “so called experts” that you are disparaging were trying to shorten your learning curve so that you might not have too many failures before you “figure it out on your own”.
Would you let someone style your tree for you?
- Thread starter Fidur
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Fidur
Chumono
I'm not talking about horticultural knowledge and techniques , but about design skills.
I'm not disparaging those people, just saying they had a different vision than mine.
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When you’re a beginner, training your eye for aesthetics is among the things you need to do to get to the point where you can make bonsai (or any other kind of art) that looks good. That said, I don’t think the Internet is a good place to get that sort of training, particularly for a 3D art like bonsai. You train your eye by studying examples of great art in detail and you learn the mechanics of how to achieve particular effects through a combination of a mentorship with someone whose trees you admire and experimentation, although experimentation is less fruitful in bonsai than in other arts because of the time scale involved.
Fidur
Chumono
I can understand and share your view, but only to a certain point.
I can't access any other training than watching the internet. So, I guess you're telling me I will never be able to make a bonsai that looks good....? I sincerously hope you are wrong.
I've been a self learning guy all of my life. Even in the university I did not attend the classes... I have never ever recived any formal education on how to read or write english.....never had any mentorship with anybody on how to photograph... but in fact I've made a livelihood from my docotorate in maths, can express myself in english, and have won several prices in photographic contests, so I think your vision is a little restrictive.
I know my horticultural background is poor, and for that reason I read every aspect here and on several places. Some of them are contradictorial, but I apply my common sense and know how to discerne the value of my sources of information.
As for my ability to train my eye for aesthetics, I've always thought this must be part of you in the first place. I don´t think anyone can have that ability just becuse he attended a workshop with an artist. He can improve it, but if it's not there at first....
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Dav4
Drop Branch Murphy
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I believe most people who keep bonsai begin their journey in a vacuum with seemingly little or no resources or direction. When I started back in the mid 1990's, I lived near a few bonsai nurseries but there weren't any clubs to speak of, so I relied on books and bonsai magazines to guide me stylistically. Staring at the pictures of classical Japanese bonsai both inspired me and formed the basis for my preferences when it comes to styling material. My tastes absolutely lean toward classical Japanese, and that's how I've approached my trees when working on them. As it turns out, Tyler is classically trained, having spent 5 years as an apprenticeship in Nagano under Shinji Suzuki. Decades before I met Tyler, I was introduced to Shinji's wonderful trees in those old magazines... fantastic collected Junipers, pines, apricots, etc., styled to perfection... sublime. When the opportunity to work with Tyler came about, I jumped at it. Unfortunately, I had to move to another part of the USA last fall, and it's much harder to get Tyler here, but I'll continue to do so when possible... maybe only once or twice a year... but I'll continue to work on the trees by myself in the interim, tweaking the styling as I go as the trees grow and change from year to year
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chicago1980
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Yes, no issue and enjoy working with masters
Ok, so since you are unable to work with a pro at your location, why even worry about it? Why bring up what you knew was going to be a controversial thread? What purpose does it serve. You weren’t asking for others opinions, you just started bonfire.
I really think, deep down, you’re just jealous of those who can work with experts, and this thread is just ‘sour grapes’.
But, hey, you’re a smart guy… if you don’t think an expert can help you, more power to ya. Good luck with your trees.
amcoffeegirl
Masterpiece
I have always thought to myself that the show is about the tree. It’s not about me or who styled it.
The show is for the viewer to see a great tree. If I had a world class tree that someone else made, then I would be selfish not to allow others to view the beauty.
The show is for the viewer to see a great tree. If I had a world class tree that someone else made, then I would be selfish not to allow others to view the beauty.
D
Deleted member 32750
Guest
Im assuming the zelkova from this photo posted on Bjorns instagram back in 2018 is your tree?
Quite the history this tree has. It’s definitely one of the top trees in all of the united states imo.
Fidur
Chumono
Excuse me Sir.
I didn`t pretend to offend you or anybody. Just wanted to encourage others to be bold to take their own design decisions
ShadyStump
Imperial Masterpiece
It's only fueling fires for those who want to start them.
He brought up a legitimate topic that many of us have enjoyed debating and discussing, and have all done so quite civilly.
Yes, same tree.
it’s been worked by Bjorn, Tyler, Bill Valalvanis, Suthin, Yuji, and who knows how many others.
There’s no one person responsible for this tree. Each person who has worked on it has contributed something.
Yes, but he came in with a bias against enlisting the services of an expert. Remember the “chills running up his spine”? He didn’t come in asking for the pros and cons, he clearly came in with an agenda.
Look, I know English is not your first language. So maybe you didn’t intend to imply that you are superior to all of us who employ bonsai masters. But you did. All that talk about how you didn’t have to attend classes to get an education. You are “too smart” to have to attend class. Taught yourself English without a tutor.
I’m sorry, but just comes off as arrogant and belittling to those of us who like to learn from the experience of others.
Dav4
Drop Branch Murphy
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You should add my name to that list…. Cuz I cut a small branch off when you weren’t looking
.C
When you hire a bonsai master, the goal is not simply to get a styled tree. Oh, I supppose that can be the sole goal, but you miss out on a great learning experience. If the Master is removing a branch, you can find out why THAT branch, and not some other. Why was the wire applied that way and not some other? Bonsai trees are not styled in one go, that’s it, done. No, they get started in a direction. The tree has to respond and then sometime later, it’s time to take the next step. A Master can tell you when and what that next step should be. What to look out for, when the tree is ready, and when it’s not. Sorry, you just can’t get this kind of information from books. Videos are better, but nothing like the in person experience.
I teach bonsai classes. People bring trees to class and they tell me how they think they want it styled. I ask them “why did they pick that front?” And “did you look at the nebari?” And, “how tall do you want the tree?” And, “have you considered changing the planting angle?” All to get them to see tree differently. Sometimes we come back to their original idea, sometimes they see something in the tree they hadn’t considered.
You see, I have 50+ years experience messing with little trees. I can guarantee I can see things in trees, possibilities, that others might miss.Am I the best? By no means! I enjoy collaborating with others! They see thing in trees I missed!
I find one of the joys of bonsai is working with others on trees. Sure, some of my trees I’ve pretty much been the only one who worked on it… recently. Others are group efforts!
Let me help you out…. Since you didn’t attend classes, I can tell you that often teachers will talk about topics that are not in the book. Or give examples from their life experiences and how they applied the knowledge they are teaching. They can give examples of when the subject matter did NOT work, as well. You miss out on a lot of information by skipping classes.
When you hire a bonsai master, the goal is not simply to get a styled tree. Oh, I supppose that can be the sole goal, but you miss out on a great learning experience. If the Master is removing a branch, you can find out why THAT branch, and not some other. Why was the wire applied that way and not some other? Bonsai trees are not styled in one go, that’s it, done. No, they get started in a direction. The tree has to respond and then sometime later, it’s time to take the next step. A Master can tell you when and what that next step should be. What to look out for, when the tree is ready, and when it’s not. Sorry, you just can’t get this kind of information from books. Videos are better, but nothing like the in person experience.
I teach bonsai classes. People bring trees to class and they tell me how they think they want it styled. I ask them “why did they pick that front?” And “did you look at the nebari?” And, “how tall do you want the tree?” And, “have you considered changing the planting angle?” All to get them to see tree differently. Sometimes we come back to their original idea, sometimes they see something in the tree they hadn’t considered.
You see, I have 50+ years experience messing with little trees. I can guarantee I can see things in trees, possibilities, that others might miss.Am I the best? By no means! I enjoy collaborating with others! They see thing in trees I missed!
I find one of the joys of bonsai is working with others on trees. Sure, some of my trees I’ve pretty much been the only one who worked on it… recently. Others are group efforts!
Yeah, I noticed! It’s ruined! I’m putting it in the Bonsai Society club auction.You should add my name to that list…. Cuz I cut a small branch off when you weren’t looking
ShadyStump
Imperial Masterpiece
He stated his thoughts, and asked for others'.
I don't see an agenda, I see a conversation. Some people agree, some disagree, and so far it's all been polite.
Let's keep it that way.
That ideal definitely is put up on a pedestal, at least by some (including some in this discussion thread). I wasn't speaking of a generality, only that there exists some subset of people who regard it that way.
I don't really buy the argument about market forces being a significant factor in it. If the demand was really that high, Bjorn or Ryan or <insert well-known bonsai artist's name here> would have a bonsai TV show on the Discovery Channel, HGTV, or at least on PBS and you could attend beginner bonsai workshops at your local Home Depot. However, I think you're absolutely right about the attitude originating from the Western cultural value of "rugged individualism", which is why you don't really see it in Asia, where collectivism is more the norm.
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