Would you let someone style your tree for you?

[ShadyStump]

I don't really buy the argument about market forces being a significant factor in it. If the demand was really that high, Bjorn or Ryan or <insert well-known bonsai artist's name here> would have a bonsai TV show on the Discovery Channel, HGTV, or at least on PBS and you could attend beginner bonsai workshops at your local Home Depot

Think of it the same way as you would model building, or miniature railroads, or even knitting. Sure you can find stuff for that all over, but you can also make bonsai using stuff from any old garden center. But there's no PBS doll making shows.

I'll posit the idea that there MAY be a level racism that indirectly keeps garden shops or hobby stores from carrying things like concave cutters. When I was a kid saying I wanted a bonsai tree, not only did I get the schpeel from my mom implying good red-blooded American boys don't grow stuff, I got humbugs and eye rolls from my dad implying that good red-blooded American boys don't do Japanese things. Now that was pushing 30 years ago, but it took that long for me to finally just say screw the nay-sayers and I still get funny looks when I talk about it sometimes, so it's not inconceivable that such things would have an impact on the market availability of bonsai related items.

 

[Lorax7]

I can understand and share your view, but only to a certain point.
I can't access any other training than watching the internet. So, I guess you're telling me I will never be able to make a bonsai that looks good....? I sincerously hope you are wrong.
I've been a self learning guy all of my life. Even in the university I did not attend the classes... I have never ever recived any formal education on how to read or write english.....never had any mentorship with anybody on how to photograph... but in fact I've made a livelihood from my docotorate in maths, can express myself in english, and have won several prices in photographic contests, so I think your vision is a little restrictive.
I know my horticultural background is poor, and for that reason I read every aspect here and on several places. Some of them are contradictorial, but I apply my common sense and know how to discerne the value of my sources of information.
As for my ability to train my eye for aesthetics, I've always thought this must be part of you in the first place. I don´t think anyone can have that ability just becuse he attended a workshop with an artist. He can improve it, but if it's not there at first....

Video is better than still pictures, but it's still no substitute for seeing good trees in person, whether that's going to a show or attending club meetings where other people bring their trees. Seeing a video of someone working on a tree is better than reading about it in a book but, again, no substitute for being in the room looking over someone's shoulder as they demonstrate a technique. Sorry to break it to you, but, yeah, if you never ever seek out any training whatsoever and don't even bother to at least physically go to bonsai shows where you can examine trees up close and see how they're built, your trees are probably going to remain mediocre at best.

Being a self-learning person only takes you so far. There will always be knowledge gaps because there will inevitably be things that you don't know that you aren't even aware exist. I was a self-learning bonsai person when I started out back in the 90's. I didn't know anyone else who did bonsai. All I had was a book. Anything about bonsai that wasn't covered in that book was completely unknown and unknowable to me because I didn't have any way to discover it. I had a little procumbens juniper and kept it alive for several years until it died. Years later, when I got back into the hobby, I learned more in one session seeing Bjorn give a lecture and a demonstration doing big bends on a Ponderosa pine at a local club meeting than I had learned in all the years that I had that little procumbens juniper.

The notion that aesthetics is somehow an innate, instinctual thing is absolute nonsense. Babies can't tell the difference, aesthetically, between this

and da Vinci's "The Last Supper". Aesthetics is cultural and, therefore, learned. If it wasn't, colleges wouldn't have art appreciation classes, graphic design classes, etc. You train your eye in aesthetics by observing well-done displays of material culture. Basically, go see lots of art and go to museums, generally. Even history museums or natural science museums, etc., still have high standards of aesthetics in how they go about presenting their exhibits. Obviously, going to bonsai shows is going to help more to pick up the aesthetic idiosyncrasies specific to bonsai and will, therefore, be more helpful in guiding how you style trees. However, a lot of what applies generally to painting or sculpture (negative and positive space, line, form, etc.) also applies to bonsai. So, even if there are no bonsai shows near you, you can still get some training in aesthetics by visiting whatever museums are around you, looking at public art, studying iconic buildings with notable architecture, etc.

 

[morriganflora]

Bjorn or Ryan or <insert well-known bonsai artist's name here> would have a bonsai TV show on the Discovery Channel, HGTV, or at least on PBS

Modern media is increasingly becoming more streaming-based, nobody makes TV shows for a young and growing audience anymore. And yeah, Bjorn and Ryan do have online streaming platforms. And so do other well-known bonsai artists. And they don't have to go to your local Home Depot because they make more money easier by getting you to pay for a livestream instead.

 

[morriganflora]

Aesthetics is cultural and, therefore, learned.

I completely agree with this but also I don't think you touched on some really important aspects of what this means and some other interesting factors at play in the appreciation of art.
For this kind of discussion I usually like to divide the experience of art into 3 different facets: art (communication), aesthetics (evolutionary responses to environment), and culture (accumulated experience). This is just my very makeshift way of understanding it and I'd actually really like to hear other peoples' extrapolations.

Culture (accumulated experience) I define in basically the same way as you defined aesthetics above, but with the entirety of your life's experiences in there too. It's the reason why languages from people who subsisted off of fishing, trading, sailing etc. have more words for blues and whites compared to a language that comes from people who lived in a dense jungle, who'll have more words for greens. You notice more subtlety in things you're used to interacting with regularly and so have more appreciation for nuance. Somebody who has a lot of experience with the very rigid contemporary Japanese styles of bonsai will be able to enjoy it more because they know what to look for and what is considered "good". As you said, a baby can't tell the difference, and somebody who immerses themselves in their own bonsai culture, e.g. Walter Pall, won't have that same appreciation either.

Aesthetics (evolutionary responses to environment) is kind of similar but this I think of as the way our brains are innately programmed to respond to seeing eyes, animalistic shapes, response to smells of predators, seeing geometric shapes, etc. These are all things that aren't created through experience and just exist as passive background functions and are almost identical from person to person, regardless of where they're from. This affects how we interpret artificial shapes as compared to natural shapes, similarity to human and animal shapes, stuff like that, and can have a really big affect on what we see as unindoctrinated viewers of an artform.

Art (communication) is more a product of the interaction between the culture of both the artist and viewer than its own thing, but the communication can definitely be a prescribed message that is either understood by or lost on the viewer. In Japan, for instance, there are some really nuanced and complex conventions regarding display of bonsai trees that can be understood and appreciated by other people who understand them, but can be completely lost or misinterpreted by somebody who has no clue about Japanese culture.

Of course all of these bleed into and affect each other in complex ways but what you're talking about with "Being a self-learning person only takes you so far. There will always be knowledge gaps because there will inevitably be things that you don't know that you aren't even aware exist." is just saying 'my culture & art > your culture & art', which I don't think is a super strong argument. Yeah, there's no other bonsai culture & art in the world that's as nuanced and developed as Japanese bonsai culture & art, but that doesn't mean it's better. Just more expansive.

 

[Lorax7]

Modern media is increasingly becoming more streaming-based, nobody makes TV shows for a young and growing audience anymore. And yeah, Bjorn and Ryan do have online streaming platforms. And so do other well-known bonsai artists. And they don't have to go to your local Home Depot because they make more money easier by getting you to pay for a livestream instead.

My point about Home Depot was not that Bjorn or Ryan would ever do workshops there. It was that if the demand was that high, corporations would absolutely be trying to cash in on it. I mentioned Home Depot because they have a variety of workshops related to products they sell. As a place with a garden center, you can bet they’d add bonsai workshops if the demand was there.

 

[morriganflora]

you can bet they’d add bonsai workshops if the demand was there.

Yeah but you can't really sell useless nonsense to people as a big name brand without getting in trouble for it. People aren't completely stupid, especially not if they're looking for education. And once an educator has enough expertise to start teaching that kind of thing they can make much more money doing other work than workshops at a garden centre. So that's how the lack of educators doesn't meet up to the demands of education. You can see it in the selling of trees, too. Swindlers sell from vans on the side of the road and through online websites with no means of getting in touch with the seller. And there's loads of them, because there's huge demand.

 

[Lorax7]

Of course all of these bleed into and affect each other in complex ways but what you're talking about with "Being a self-learning person only takes you so far. There will always be knowledge gaps because there will inevitably be things that you don't know that you aren't even aware exist." is just saying 'my culture & art > your culture & art'

Umm… no. You’ve completely jumped the shark here. That’s a gross mischaracterization of what I said. I made absolutely no value judgments about anybody’s culture being better or worse than anybody else’s culture.

What I said was a general statement about the limitations of self-study which apply to any field of endeavor whatsoever (art, bonsai, medicine, 14th century Amish swimwear, whatever). Namely, that you can only study the aspects of a topic that are readily discoverable to you. If you have no idea that some subtopic related to the topic of your self-study exists, you can’t go look up a book (or YouTube video, etc.) on that subtopic.

 

[morriganflora]

Umm… no. You’ve completely jumped the shark here. That’s a gross mischaracterization of what I said. I made absolutely no value judgments about anybody’s culture being better or worse than anybody else’s culture.

What I said was a general statement about the limitations of self-study which apply to any field of endeavor whatsoever (art, bonsai, medicine, 14th century Amish swimwear, whatever). Namely, that you can only study the aspects of a topic that are readily discoverable to you. If you have no idea that some subtopic related to the topic of your self-study exists, you can’t go look up a book (or YouTube video, etc.) on that subtopic.

You may not have said it outright, and used compelling language to make it seem like you didn't, but saying "it's still no substitute for seeing good trees in person", "I learned more in one session seeing Bjorn", then leading into "if you never ever seek out any training whatsoever... your trees are probably going to remain mediocre at best", and following it up with "Aesthetics is cultural and, therefore, learned" implies that the 'cultural aesthetics' you learned from Bjorn and others is somehow better than the 'cultural aesthetics' of people who haven't experienced that, and instead are building on a cultural aesthetic informed by their experiences and interpretations of trees and art and bonsai.

I agree, nobody can purposefully replicate 14th century Amish swimwear or other super specific stuff with loads of complex nuances without ever studying it, but you have to keep in mind that maybe not all people are trying to replicate the nuances and cultural aspects of Japanese bonsai, and instead trying to build on their own cultural and artistic experiences to create a new interpretation of bonsai. Saying that that isn't as good isn't valid, it's just that it's not appealing to you with your experiences and culture. I understand you're probably thinking of the beginner who's way too excited about their bog standard procumbens, but we're not necessarily talking about that. We're talking about creating new nuanced and complex concepts that can reach as deep and refined a level as Japanese bonsai when practised by a master of that style.

 

[Lorax7]

You may not have said it outright, and used compelling language to make it seem like you didn't, but saying "it's still no substitute for seeing good trees in person", "I learned more in one session seeing Bjorn", then leading into "if you never ever seek out any training whatsoever... your trees are probably going to remain mediocre at best", and following it up with "Aesthetics is cultural and, therefore, learned" implies that the 'cultural aesthetics' you learned from Bjorn and others is somehow better than the 'cultural aesthetics' of people who haven't experienced that, and instead are building on a cultural aesthetic informed by their experiences and interpretations of trees and art and bonsai.

The 3 paragraphs I wrote were responding separately to different points in the post I was responding to. They are completely unrelated to each other. If I was better at using this web forum’s software, I would’ve split up the quotation of the post I was responding to and interleaved the 3 paragraphs.

By the way, it wasn’t cultural aesthetics that I learned from that lecture and demo by Bjorn. It was a revelation about technical possibility. Prior to that experience, I would not have thought it possible to bend a tree like that without snapping it in two.

 

[morriganflora]

By the way, it wasn’t cultural aesthetics that I learned from that lecture and demo by Bjorn. It was a revelation about technical possibility. Prior to that experience, I would not have thought it possible to bend a tree like that without snapping it in two.

Speaking from experience, you really don't need to study with a bonsai professional to learn horticulture. It helps for bonsai-specific stuff, but you can learn most of that through experimentation once you have the fundamentals down. And we were never discussing avoiding learning horticultural knowledge from other people, so I don't see how that's a relevant point. Honestly, reading it again now, it seems like your original comment had two pretty useless statements and a final one that doesn't even support your point that you need to learn from professionals:

1. If you never learn you don't know anything (irrelevant, Fidur explicitly said "I know my horticultural background is poor, and for that reason I read every aspect here and on several places" and mentioned self-directed learning)

2. You can't learn horticulture without knowing what you need to learn in horticulture (irrelevant, because of what I said above and what Fidur said)

3. Aesthetic taste is a result of accumulated experience (I agree, and that's why I think this can be self-directed, as stated in other replies)

 

[leatherback]

So glad there is no place in the world for teachers.
Lets close all schools and universities.

 

[Lorax7]

Speaking from experience, you really don't need to study with a bonsai professional to learn horticulture. It helps for bonsai-specific stuff, but you can learn most of that through experimentation once you have the fundamentals down. And we were never discussing avoiding learning horticultural knowledge from other people, so I don't see how that's a relevant point. Honestly, reading it again now, it seems like your original comment had two pretty useless statements and a final one that doesn't even support your point that you need to learn from professionals:

1. If you never learn you don't know anything (irrelevant, Fidur explicitly said "I know my horticultural background is poor, and for that reason I read every aspect here and on several places" and mentioned self-directed learning)

2. You can't learn horticulture without knowing what you need to learn in horticulture (irrelevant, because of what I said above and what Fidur said)

3. Aesthetic taste is a result of accumulated experience (I agree, and that's why I think this can be self-directed, as stated in other replies)

Just put me on ignore. You are clearly incapable of reading anything that I’ve written and accurately discerning the intended meaning. I’m definitely putting you on ignore as I have no desire to interact with you further. It looks to me like you are simply another internet troll.

 

[Paradox]

While I stated that Ive cringed when someone else has worked on my trees. That is because I am a firm believer in the fact that you can only cut once. Afterwards it's too late. I've had a couple of bad experiences in the past. A branch died or something was cut that I would have preferred to keep.

I prefer to examine and discuss the options before making a decision to cut or not cut. In the end it is my tree and I prefer to make and want to be part of that decision.

Now I don't have fantastic, highly refined trees like Adair and Brian do where I would consider the stakes to be higher and having a master work on them would be beneficial. All of my trees are came from nursery stock or minor pre bonsai stock, not 50+ year old world class trees that had once been in Kikufu. My trees simply aren't on the same planet as those and a waste of the master's time.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

My trees simply aren't on the same planet as those and a waste of the master's time.

How do you think we got there?

 

[Paradox]

How do you think we got there?

While you're right, I would also guess that some of the material you purchase is of much better quality than I am able to purchase at this point. Though I am saving some funds and hope to buy a higher quality tree some day.

I've gone from the newb buy everything that even remotely looks like it could be a bonsai to being more selective and buying better material but still not great material grown for bonsai. Those purchases have had varying degrees of success and now I'm seeing that if I'd saved that money and bought one or two better trees, I might be better off. I just like the idea of taking something I see potential in and making something from it so it's hard to resist.

I know you have also developed some such as trident maples. You get much faster growth rates than I do up here and I don't think I have that kind of time left. I planted some trident seedlings a few years ago, the trunks aren't even an inch in diameter yet..lol

 

[WNC Bonsai]

In this case, the owner of the tree gets the award. Everyone knows that Shinji Suzuki was the artist behind the tree. No one gives the apprentice (who did the actual work) any credit! LOL!!! Tyler’s reward for Mr. Suzuki’s client winning the award was he got to sleep in the next day!

It’s kinda like the owner of the winning horse at the Kentucky Derby. Sure, the owner gets to stand up on the podium with the ribbon, the jockey gets recognized, but it was the trainers and breeze riders and the stableboys who did all the work. And get little, if any, recognition.

And that makes it OK?

 

[mapleX]

How do you think we got there?

With a lot of money?

 

[Dav4]

With a lot of money?

Hmmmm, bit of a tanget from the topic here, but it does have some relevance here, so here goes. Time is money and that is amplified in bonsai. A 4 year old maple is never going to win Best of Show and the greatest bonsai master on the planet won't be able to change that fact... but give him 30 years working that tree... maybe? I know for a fact that Brian has spent decent $$$ in this hobby, both on material and on classes/workshops,etc.. I also know that one of his best trees... a tree that's been shown in the Nationals... was a tree he collected himself 2 decades ago, planted in his garden, and has been developing and refining ever since. I'm pretty sure he paid nothing for the tree itself... but has spent more than a 3rd of his life moving it forward, and 95% + of the actual work done to the tree was done by Brian's hand.

Anyway, if you want to do anything at a high level... bonsai, tennis, bass fishing, auto restoration, etc., etc.,... you'll generally be spending more time and money than you would if you weren't wanting to up your game. Such is life, and begrudging someone's deeper pockets is wasted emotion and counter-productive. Ultimately, pretty much everyone here can spend more $$ in the hobby if they really want to... just takes planning and prioritizing. I was 6 or 7 years into the hobby when I spent $540 on a very old unstyled collected juniper... I had 2 kids in diapers, a 30 year mortgage and ridiculous school debt... esssentially living check to check... but I scraped the $$ together and made it work. Finally, the hobby is better for the people who ARE able to spend more of their hard earned money on both material classes taught by pros, as well as having them work on their trees in their back yard and that side of the hobby should be encouraged.

 

[ShadyStump]

Hmmmm, bit of a tanget from the topic here, but it does have some relevance here, so here goes. Time is money and that is amplified in bonsai. A 4 year old maple is never going to win Best of Show and the greatest bonsai master on the planet won't be able to change that fact... but give him 30 years working that tree... maybe? I know for a fact that Brian has spent decent $$$ in this hobby, both on material and on classes/workshops,etc.. I also know that one of his best trees... a tree that's been shown in the Nationals... was a tree he collected himself 2 decades ago, planted in his garden, and has been developing and refining ever since. I'm pretty sure he paid nothing for the tree itself... but has spent more than a 3rd of his life moving it forward, and 95% + of the actual work done to the tree was done by Brian's hand.

Anyway, if you want to do anything at a high level... bonsai, tennis, bass fishing, auto restoration, etc., etc.,... you'll generally be spending more time and money than you would if you weren't wanting to up your game. Such is life, and begrudging someone's deeper pockets is wasted emotion and counter-productive. Ultimately, pretty much everyone here can spend more $$ in the hobby if they really want to... just takes planning and prioritizing. I was 6 or 7 years into the hobby when I spent $540 on a very old unstyled collected juniper... I had 2 kids in diapers, a 30 year mortgage and ridiculous school debt... esssentially living check to check... but I scraped the $$ together and made it work. Finally, the hobby is better for the people who ARE able to spend more of their hard earned money on both material classes taught by pros, as well as having them work on their trees in their back yard and that side of the hobby should be encouraged.

I'm agreeing and disagreeing at the same time here.
1st, I wouldn't say it should be encouraged, but that it shouldn't be discouraged. Simply put, some don't have the resources, or at the very least have other priorities.
In that respect, you're absolutely correct that those who don't spend the money are at a disadvantage, and can't expect as good results.

In the end, the "go it alone" crowd will generally accomplish mediocrity.
But what's wrong with that?
Certainly mediocrity is nothing to aspire to, but I quite certainly IS something to be content with.
All children like to draw and color, but we're all content with the fact that the vast majority will never develop any particularly great skills much less become great artists. Our trees are the same: we all love doing it, but it's unreasonable to expect all of us to want to have incredible trees let alone achieve it. Most of us are quite content with our terrible and mediocre trees, and I feel we should all embrace that fact. Encouragement to improve and constructive criticism are always welcome, and ought to be accepted happily, but I certainly don't expect everyone here to aspire to be Walter or Bryan. Most of us are happy being Nigel Saunders.

 

[Dav4]

I'm agreeing and disagreeing at the same time here.
1st, I wouldn't say it should be encouraged, but that it shouldn't be discouraged. Simply put, some don't have the resources, or at the very least have other priorities.
In that respect, you're absolutely correct that those who don't spend the money are at a disadvantage, and can't expect as good results.

In the end, the "go it alone" crowd will generally accomplish mediocrity.
But what's wrong with that?
Certainly mediocrity is nothing to aspire to, but I quite certainly IS something to be content with.
All children like to draw and color, but we're all content with the fact that the vast majority will never develop any particularly great skills much less become great artists. Our trees are the same: we all love doing it, but it's unreasonable to expect all of us to want to have incredible trees let alone achieve it. Most of us are quite content with our terrible and mediocre trees, and I feel we should all embrace that fact. Encouragement to improve and constructive criticism are always welcome, and ought to be accepted happily, but I certainly don't expect everyone here to aspire to be Walter or Bryan. Most of us are happy being Nigel Saunders.

There’s nothing wrong with the “go it alone “approach… Just as there’s nothing wrong with not having high end trees. As you say, if you’re happy with mediocre trees… Or mediocre results with your approach… Then have at it. Life is too short to worry about stuff like that… But… Where there’s a will, there’s a way, and if you want to practice at a higher level, you can figure it out and get there if you really want it and it doesn’t always require lots of money… but money can get you there faster… and those that do spend in the hobby shouldn’t be begrudged by those who don’t, regardless of why.

For what it’s worth, if no one was willing to spend any money in this hobby above and beyond buying some three year old start at Home Depot and whacking on it by themselves in their backyard, I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t have Björn opening his nursery outside of Nashville, and you wouldn’t have Ryan having his outside of Portland, and Boon in CA, and Tyler in NC, etc., (these guys need to make a living and can’t do it if people aren’t spending money for their services ). There would be fewer online resources from these two and other experienced practitioners that are available for a little or no cost to anyone.