Would you buy a "finished" tree?

[Adair M]

DOING (not just owning) bonsai is what makes it most enjoyable for me.

And, as for naming ownership of a displayed tree, Bonsai is not an ego trip for me. As Bill say, I go to exhibits for the trees, not their makers.

My experience has been that maintaining a highly refined bonsai is more labor intensive than developing raw stock.

Thus my goal is to have about a dozen "showable" trees. Any more, and some would be neglected.

 

[M. Frary]

do you all think that tridents are the fastest developing trees in my climate zone to do ROR?

I can't grow tridents here but I would be willing to bet an Elm would perform just as well if not better than a trident. Like I said I don't know tridents but I do know elms. Believe me if they could take cold I would have a couple benches full of them too. Both of these species are the best ones for decidious bonsai. Fast growth,take rootwork well,leaves reduce very well and so on. Try one of each. Race them.

 

[A Random User]

I wanted to clarify my position and say the following... I am not opposed to someone buying a finished tree at all, or even having professional people work on one's tree. If I could buy one of Neil's trees that is finished, that i have seen him post as of lately, I would. And I would try and maintain it for the most part as he initially saw the tree. However, being an artist, with a vision... gradually the tree over time through growing and always progressing , yes would develop little by little over time into a tree that more than likely would reflect what I as an artist see, than what perhaps Neil would of intended. Seeing that our art is a living, ever changing creation. This would just be a reality, because no matter how much I might want to retain the original concept, it is going to change. Parts are going to grow, parts are going to not grow.

Also, I totally get one wanting to own a finished tree for other reasons, that it is a Neil tree, and one really appreciates him as an artist, or perhaps the tree is just so amazing one would love to own it.

Where I find fault personally, would be when one goes to show it... and how then should this tree be presented.

I mean I know it is very common in japan for wealthy folks to own the tree, and not do the actual work on the tree. And there is nothing wrong with this. And in alot of ways the same scenario happens here in the states. Where those who have lots of money buy nice trees and have others do the majority of the work. And every time their tree needs some more work done, they bring the tree to the next workshop and have it worked on. Nothing necessarily wrong with this... the tree is a great tree, and the work that has been done on it is great! Then when it is shown it naturally wins awards because of it...

Now, it has been stated here, that shows are about trees and not who works on them, which OK, I get... when I go to a show and look at the trees, I to look at the trees for the trees. It isn't until i see something I like, or dislike that I then want to know who the tree belongs to and who did the work. So, in alot of ways I agree with this.

Where, I personally would differ would be, if the show is all about the trees, then why the need to award them? I mean clearly the trees do not need or even perhaps understand that they won a first place ribbon. Right? And not everyone always appreciates the same trees in the same way, one might prefer a certain tree, and favor it the most, while someone else appreciates another.

So, then why do we give awards?
If the art itself does not appreciate it, then it must be then about the the artist that created the tree. So then, the awards are given in recognition of the best tree in order that we as artists can celibate and appreciate the work and the skill that went into making the art. Right? To show that this tree stands above the rest because of the work that had been done on the tree to bring it to this level of greatness and refinement.

So, it is not then really all about the trees when awards are given... it is also about the folks behind who created to tree, even if no one knows who that actually is. And what then does it say when awards are given to trees to folks who have alot of money and can pay for top end material and artists to work on the trees? Now, obviously, this isn't always the case... but, one does have to see the inherent flaw within the current setup that is often used by most shows. I personally, would have to agree with those shows that do offer up the possibility of awarding the different levels of degrees of advancement. Such as beginner, immediate, and advanced, or ametuer and professional...and give awards then accordingly... for this seems to then level the field, and be the most fair.

 

[coh]

And what then does it say when awards are given to trees to folks who have alot of money and can pay for top end material and artists to work on the trees?

Simple...it says these are the best trees as judged by (whatever panel of experts). Who bought them/who developed them/how much they cost doesn't matter.

I think you're coming at this from the fine art world (painting, sculpture, etc) where it is expected that the work displayed be completely produced by the artist who displays it. The bonsai tradition is different, as you noted.

That said, I don't see why there can't be alternate or additional categories at some shows, where for example work is judged more as it would be at a painting show, where the work on the tree is primarily done by the artist exhibiting it. But then you get into grey areas, what if a tree was taken to a workshop with a master, what if the master actually trimmed or (shudder) applied wire to tree. Where do you draw the line?

 

[A Random User]

Also, I wanted to add that I did buy a tree that has had a lot of work done on it, and quite literally could have just been brought to the next show and shown, and who knows, might have even won an award, who knows...

The tree I am talking about is a buttonwood that have posted here on numerous occasions... with alot of deadwood.

However, my intentions when purchasing the tree was not to turn around and show it, but instead I saw a different tree, and path forward to take the tree in another direction, this is why I purchased the tree, because I felt I could improve on it. I still however struggle as an artist with this. And is the tree my creation? I am not sure that it really matters, and I will say that alot of folks would say it is, including the people I got the tree from... but, it does still sit at the back of my mind.

 

[A Random User]

Simple...it says these are the best trees as judged by (whatever panel of experts). Who bought them/who developed them/how much they cost doesn't matter.

I think you're coming at this from the fine art world (painting, sculpture, etc) where it is expected that the work displayed be completely produced by the artist who displays it. The bonsai tradition is different, as you noted.

That said, I don't see why there can't be alternate or additional categories at some shows, where for example work is judged more as it would be at a painting show, where the work on the tree is primarily done by the artist exhibiting it. But then you get into grey areas, what if a tree was taken to a workshop with a master, what if the master actually trimmed or (shudder) applied wire to tree. Where do you draw the line?

So, how then do you feel about one who has spent years developing a tree and bringing it to the level of being shown, and one that just bought the tree the month before showing a tree. Personally?

I mean for me personally, it is not necessarily about winning awards... but, I would still like to think that all the hard work that I put into my creation would be rewarded. And it would suck to find out that I was beat out by a tree that the only thing the owner did, was change the pot. This hasn't happened to me, but I have seen it before.

Now, with that said... it just makes me personally work harder, seeing that I don't want to be that guy that just buys nice trees to show them... It means I just gotta bring my game up to the level of that where I can compete! I will never be able to compete however with the material... so I actually gotta be better! Cause I also have to make up for a lack of having decent material to start from...

 

[aframe]

Boon shows the tree fairly often. Who should get the credit?

The Tree, Boon and those formerly in charge of it's care.

Can we truly own a tree when it's live 3 times as long as us now, and may thrive for another few centuries after we're all gone? I'd say honor the hands who've cared and shaped 'the tree' you've just purchased; and those may do the same after long after you.
Hell yes I'd buy a finished tree; a piece of fine art, history and family lineage.
I also would have no problem showing the tree, as long as it hadn't be shown for an appropriate amount of time. After all: a bonsai exhibition is just that, Bonsai [and its story]

 

[coh]

So, how then do you feel about one who has spent years developing a tree and bringing it to the level of being shown, and one that just bought the tree the month before showing a tree. Personally?

I mean for me personally, it is not necessarily about winning awards... but, I would still like to think that all the hard work that I put into my creation would be rewarded.

Your last sentence is somewhat contradictory in my opinion. It's not about winning awards, but you would like to be rewarded?

Anyway, I have no problem with the scenario you described, assuming the event is a standard bonsai show where the tree is being judged on its own merits. If it was a show where beginner or intermediate artists were supposed to be judged on their work, then it would be a problem.

 

[barrosinc]

If it was a show where beginner or intermediate artists were supposed to be judged on their work, then it would be a problem.

I guess that is what juniper styling competitions are for...

 

[A Random User]

Your last sentence is somewhat contradictory in my opinion. It's not about winning awards, but you would like to be rewarded?

Anyway, I have no problem with the scenario you described, assuming the event is a standard bonsai show where the tree is being judged on its own merits. If it was a show where beginner or intermediate artists were supposed to be judged on their work, then it would be a problem.

No contradiction...
For me it is about showing my work off.
And yes, I would hope that my tree would be the best. It is not about awards for me, they only collect dust... but, this is the system that is in place for judging the quality of one's work, whether one likes it or not. Or even agrees with the process.

If it was more about awarding folks based on the merit that they personally did, I would probably find the whole rewarding process that much more important. And the awards that much more meaningful.

 

[A Random User]

Maybe what we need then is a national show that one shows trees at and a national show where one shows the trees the artists have created?

 

[erb.75]

I can't grow tridents here but I would be willing to bet an Elm would perform just as well if not better than a trident. Like I said I don't know tridents but I do know elms. Believe me if they could take cold I would have a couple benches full of them too. Both of these species are the best ones for decidious bonsai. Fast growth,take rootwork well,leaves reduce very well and so on. Try one of each. Race them.

I have a lot of elm cuttings that I'm hoping will take this summer, so maybe I'll plant several on rocks and have them race my trident

 

[rockm]

Maybe what we need then is a national show that one shows trees at and a national show where one shows the trees the artists have created?

That'd be nice, but the distinction is a small one and probably irrelevant in getting enough people to attend either.

 

[coh]

Maybe what we need then is a national show that one shows trees at and a national show where one shows the trees the artists have created?

Build it and they will (or won't) come.

I guess if something like this is important enough to you, you should start such a show.

 

[Adair M]

The awards do more than stroke the ego of the winner, they serve to educate the public and the other participants. If they look at the award winners, and try to figure out why those trees were judged to be "better". Maybe next time they'll have some ideas on how to improve their trees.

 

[Adair M]

Maybe what we need then is a national show that one shows trees at and a national show where one shows the trees the artists have created?

In Japan, they do have shows for just the professionals.

 

[thumblessprimate1]

Q: Would you buy a "finished" tree?
A: But, of course! I love bonsai.

 

[Eric Group]

Clearly, the show is organized for the enjoyment of beautiful trees! But from the perspective of those entering their trees... Do '

Maybe what we need then is a national show that one shows trees at and a national show where one shows the trees the artists have created?

Well... Maybe instead of doing more "contests" through B-nut, we should have the Bnut-ten? A show for Bnut, by Bnut Held and Judged ON Bnut! We can have designations for trees styled by the artists, those styled by others, those bought by people already styled... Or require PROOF that the artists styled it themselves? JK

This would be a bit easier than a progressive challenge or requirements that a tree was bought as raw stock within a certain time period or was within a certain price range... Just an online SHOW, not a challenge? Removes all limitations on locations and distance, traveling with your trees... All of that.. Also removes the three dimensional enjoyment of the trees, but the Internet has it's own limitations!

 

[johng]

At the U.S. National Bonsai Exhibitions the tree is the important factor. Simply put, the exhibition has and will continue to be organized to show the beauty of bonsai, PERIOD.

It makes no difference where the tree came from nor who created it, as long as its in the United States and is beautiful it is eligible to be displayed.

The U.S. National Bonsai Exhibition is about the beauty of bonsai, NOT people.

Bill

I am sorry Bill but I disagree completely...no people, no shows, no bonsai....shows are about people...trees just provide a common interest....there is absolutely no other way to look at it. Who do you hand the awards to? WHO decides which tree gets an award...Perhpas it's just semantics but to say a show is only about the trees is a major logical fallacy to me.

If the your national show had 300 of the best trees in the world but zero attendees I'm quite sure you would consider it a total failure. All shows, of all kinds, are only about people comin together around a common interest.

 

[A Random User]

I am sorry Bill but I disagree completely...no people, no shows, no bonsai....shows are about people...trees just provide a the common interest....there is absolutely no other way to look at it. Who do you hand the awards to? WHO decides which tree gets an award...Perhpas it's just semantics but to say a show is only about the trees is a major logical fallacy to me.

I would agree with you.
I think we are however arguing the semantics where Bill was more than likely just stating what the "mission" of his show was.